My little story

A message board to discuss personal experiences of Lipitor and its effects.

My little story

Postby Who'sKiddingWhom » Tue Oct 26, 2010 12:55 pm

Here's a not-so-little story for you:
I had a stress-related breakdown in 1986 - yeah, a long long time ago. It seems that my Vietnam service, my job and health problems my mother was having many miles away just came together all at once and brought on terrible 24-hour stress headaches. It was months before I could get the medical profession, let alone my employer, the US government, to believe me. It took three years before I got my first little disability check. In the meantime I went from office work to toilet-scrubber. Anyway, after those three pretty tough years of headaches, depression and agoraphobic symptoms I started getting things back together. Things went in a slow but positive direction for 3 years more, when in 1992 my new doctor put me on 10mg lipitor. In 1994 it went to 20mg, then 40mg in 2002 and finally 80mg in 2008. I was in therapy from '86 to 2006 for all that stuff, and of course, I thought it was just the way I was and the way I would be for the rest of my life.
I'd gone to 3 different neurologists to prove to my doctors that the headaches were real, and an arthritis specialist for my swollen and hurting hands - yup, arthritis, she said - "Doesn't it hurt?" She asked. Well, yeah, it does hurt. She said the extreme pain, crankiness, in my neck and shoulders were the same thing. I couldn't reach behind my back or behind my shoulder or swing my arms in a circle. Instead of doing 20 pushups, 10 times daily (ex-Marine, you know), I couldn't do a single one, for the pain. I had two kidney stone episodes (I'd rather give birth) in 1998 & 2000. Calcium-based. My thinking was confused, and I felt overwhelmed in so many situations. I didn't retain things, couldn't concentrate, couldn't think of words. I just thought that things were never going to get better.
In 2002, 40mg lipitor. In 2005 I went to a specialist for a sciatic pinch and the xray showed a spinal stress fracture. He poo-pooed it, but I didn't trust him, and my doctor had me take a bone density test and found I was a few numbers lower than the level for osteoporosis. He put me on calcium+D. In 2006 I brought up something I'd read about Lipitor and loss of Co-enzyme 10. He smiled and said it's a miniscule amount that's easily made up with the average diet.
In 2008 I was put on 80mg, and everything kinda came to head over the past year or so. I'd had a persistent and inexplicable cough for about three years. Not in the lungs, no sore throat from it, just lower than the throat. Like Alzheimers, I could picture the word I wanted to say, but it wouldn't come out. Shovel. Celery. Geranium. Our friend Gayle. All of my earlier mentioned depression, foggy thinking, all of it got worse. I started getting bad, then horrible heartburn. From anything. If I bent over, or laid in bed, horrible. Gerd.
Finally I called my doctor, and was given prescription prevacid for heartburn.. About a year ago I noticed when I was sitting in a recliner with one leg crossed at the knee, I could only lower it if I used both hands, with a lot of pain. Also over the past year I'd be driving somewhere, and take a wrong turn, and then wonder where the hell I was and where I was going.
I've told a very long story here, and even though my situation is intertwined with my past, I already know there are a lot of things that you'll notice in yourself. My biggest complaint with the medical profession is that they don't listen to their patients, and put us on the defensive if we suggest or ask about something. and when we do give them something to ponder, they treat the symptom and not the cause. Give you drugs and medicine to treat a problem created by medicine. And my biggest complaint about myself was not listening to my body. Or my own common sense.
This past summer I was in such terrible shape, that I decided to lay it all on the line with my doctor. All these things I'd just beared through the years because I was given such a hard time from my doctors who thought I was either a hypochondric, a real nut, or a fake looking for Tylenol#3 for kicks. I still had no idea what was causing all this, only that something had to be done.
Last July I guess I'd caught enough red flags from past reading that I decided to google lipitor side effects, and lipitor horror stories. I found some unbelievable stuff. Try spacedoc.net (ex-NASA doctor); it's a great site for both information and patient testimonials. But there are LOADS of sites, many many doctors who feel the same about this. I found doctors talking about the cholesterol scam, and the lipitor scam, and the need of cholesterol in the body.
And now I believe it, and if you have any symptoms that seem at all unusual, you'd better start researching. We've all been taught that cholesterol is B A D, while in fact it has very very positive and absolutely necessary roles in the function of our bodies. I found how cholesterol and vitamin D interact with each other and apart from each other, and how deficiencies cause other vitamins not to be absorbed or utilized by the body. Cholesterol's relationship to the brain, and skin and other cancers, and so much more. Vitamin D for strong bones, and for vitamin C absorption. D for calcium absorption and thus its relationship to...kidney stones. D deficiency causes muscle pain, weakness, and a specific kidney damage, and death. Get reading.
At my six month follow-up with my doctor today, the first I've seen him since stopping Lipitor, though I'd notified him, I gave him two typed pages of my symptoms over the past 20 years...physical, mental, physiological on the first page. Relief I'd experienced since stopping on the second. Muscle and neck crankiness very much gone. Cough gone. I worked up from 3 pushups three times a day to 7, three times, plus lifting a little weights. But my muscles are weak, and a bit painful. I stopped for a couple of days. Now I can barely do 3, once a day now, with pain. Some things change quickly, some slowly, and I guess some will not get better at all. The fogginess, 50% better, concentration 40% better, feeling overwhelmed 20% better, knees 80% better, those Alzheimer symptoms are just about gone. He has put me on a once-a-week 50,000 unit prescription of, guess what..... vitamin D. He said he didn't know how long it'll take for the level to normalize, and I do wonder what the deficiency in vitamin D AND cholesterol has done to my body from all of these years.
I told him today that I like my cholesterol, and I would never try to lower it with drugs again. Diet and exercise. Ha. Ain't it the way...the same old prescription for a healthy life. You know, my relatives lived pretty long lives, long before lipitor came along. My mother is doing fine at 91, my father left us at 82, his mother, 84, grandfather 88. I have a very simplistic and stupid outlook, huh? Hey, if I die in my eighties..so shoot me.
You know, if it turns out that statins can stop you from dying from what it says it can, then good for you and good for them. But for myself and my guess is 80% of people on it (just my guess), I think the harm far outweighs it.
Look, we all live and we all die. Live your life, and don't add any of this crap unless YOU really feel it's necessary. And DO NOT listen to some dimshit telling you it's all in your head. It's not. It's in a multi-billion dollar moneymaker made by Pfizer. It's in a little pill called Lipitor.
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Bravo!

Postby Nancy W » Tue Oct 26, 2010 9:37 pm

Well said...what a journey you have had! Are having. We all are having who are here. check out Dr. Graveline's new book, The Dark Side of Statins...it is an e-book available on amazon. I just finished it, the day after buying it. Great info, all in one place!

Nancy W
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Postby Allen1 » Wed Oct 27, 2010 9:04 am

Well said Who'sKiddingWhom,

sorry you had to go through all that and then have statins making things even worse. The whole world is influenced by big companies like the ones who make this poison along with what seeds you can by and who supplies them (genetically modified etc), we are all in a big mess while the greedy companies just keep getting greedier and we just get sicker.

I was never into conspiracy theories a few years ago but when you take a look around at what is allowed to go on in the real world that shouldn't, you have to wonder who is getting paid to look the other way.

Anyway, I hope you do get a bit better (its often a slow journey), I would look into Acetyl L Carnitine and Co Q10 as suppliments to help you along the way.

All the best,
Allen.
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Postby Cat Mom2 » Wed Dec 01, 2010 1:03 pm

Statins were NEVER meant to be given in as large a doses as they are given these days. I know a small lady they started on 40mg!! From none to 40! Needless to say, she didn't take them long.

I feel like they know what statins do to people but that opens a whole new door for them to sell you even more drugs and help to keep the doctors and specialist offices full.

What get me are the many, many doctors that BOO-POO the idea of looking things up for yourself on the internet and say you can't believe what you read on there.. I told one doctor (in regards to statin drugs) they THEY force us to turn to the internet to find help because we KNOW something is wrong and they simply will NOT listen to us or consider a drug like statins can do more harm that good. When you KNOW something is terriably wrong and your doctor won't listen, the only place you have to go is the internet. His answer to that was to try to put me on a anti-depressant! I never went back to see that idiot again!

Now when they ask if I have any allergies, I tell them "YES! Statin drugs!"
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Postby lars999 » Wed Dec 01, 2010 2:35 pm

Hello Cat Mom!!

I have even blunter responses to doctors that try to tell me how unreliable Internet is. "The worst medical advice I have ever received came from doctors during office visits. The doctor perscribing Lipitor is in first place for really bad advice." all true, unfortunately.

Lars
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Postby Cat Mom2 » Sat Dec 04, 2010 10:29 am

I have to remember that one for the next time one tells me that! I only had ONE doctor that wrote something on a piece of paper and said "That is what you have, look it up on the internet and learn all you can about it."... and one nurse that called me and told me "This is what you have, write it down, it is spelled XXXXX, look it up on the internet so you will see it is not dangerous."

But you get so many that feel so threatened that you could possiably know more than they do about something... Usually you do once you start looking for answers.
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Postby lars999 » Sat Dec 04, 2010 12:56 pm

CatMom,

I too have been told to use Internet for information about a diagnosis. In each case that I recall just now, this was a time-saving measure and was associated with a specialist, never with a GP.

I have repeatedly gotten impression that GPs and others prescribing statin drugs are getting defensive about doing so. One can wonder if they are feeling a pinch twixt lucrative prescribing, etc. and potential malpractice suits from patients. Clearly, all the public news about bad effects of statin drugs is getting to them, hence such statements as "You can get all sorts of negative stuff abouts statins from news and Internet." My response to this is something like, "Well there are excellent reasons for that, given all the problems folks are having from statins." That is nearly always end of that topic. Think I will be adding that "I am proud to have helped more and more victims quit their statins. Probably also recommend Dr. Beatrice Golomb's site "Stopped_our_statins", also her NIH-funded San Diego Statin Effects Study.

Lars
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Postby BCGuy » Mon Jan 24, 2011 4:16 pm

Hi All,

I'm a 46 year old male living in BC.

I had a heart attack at the end of Nov/10

I was promptly put on what I find the normal medications to come from the GPs

Plavix -75mg

ASA-81mg

Rampril(Altace)-5mg

Metoprolol-50mg x 2 a day.

and of course the dreaded Lipitor- 80mgs

They had me on 80mgs for a month then put the Lipitor down to 40 mg after.

I'm 6 feet tall and 175lbs. I have given blood for several years until now( they won't let me) They tested blood pressure here before donating and they haven't said it was high once.

My Lipid Profile when I was still in the hospital ( directly after MI) are as follows

Triglycerides 0.77 --- Ref Interval 0.60 - 1.70 mmol/l

Total Cholesterol 3.92 --- 3.00 - 5.19 mmol/l

LDL 2.96 --- 1.30 - 3.33mmol/l

HDL 0.61 L --- 1.0 - 1.85 mmol/l

LDL to HDL 4.9 H --- 0.6 - 2.9 mmol/l

They seem to use a different number system here, as compared to what i,ve read on here for others.

I had an angioplasty done and 2 large Stents put in, one medicated and one not.

I have read awaiting to approved here that 80 mgs of Lipitor is an irresponsible dosage. My doctor actually told me that not a single doctor would say that statins don't work for my problem and aren't safe.

I have never trusted Big Pharma and feel their corrupt. I only believe in Emergency medicine and not sick care so I want off Lipitor.

I think the plan for the Plavix was to come off it at about 6 months. The ASA I will take but the rest I don't want because I am feeling some of the effects mentioned here already. ie: joint pain ,transient numb fingers and toes, loose stool, spaced out feeling, difficulty with vision( never seems to be enough light), etc.

I have started taking 100mgs-COQ10, Omega3, and some Vit A and D
I also have cut the amount of Lipitor by 50% to wean myself off. From what I understand here is that inflamation id mostly the culprit and needs to be controlled as well as watch Stress, sugar intake and ? Can't think straight right now.

Any of you great people have any other advice about this or any of the other Meds they put me on?

Thanks.....a very greatful BCGuy
Last edited by BCGuy on Mon Jan 24, 2011 6:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby David Staup » Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:37 pm

BCguy

"http://www.drweil.com/drw/u/ART02012/anti-inflammatory-diet

From the above link:

•On a 2,000-calorie-a-day diet, adult women should consume between 160 to 200 grams of carbohydrates a day.
•Adult men should consume between 240 to 300 grams of carbohydrates a day.
•The majority of this should be in the form of less-refined, less-processed foods with a low glycemic load.
•Reduce your consumption of foods made with wheat flour and sugar, especially bread and most packaged snack foods (including chips and pretzels).
•Eat more whole grains such as brown rice and bulgur wheat, in which the grain is intact or in a few large pieces. These are preferable to whole wheat flour products, which have roughly the same glycemic index as white flour products.
•Eat more beans, winter squashes, and sweet potatoes.
•Cook pasta al dente and eat it in moderation.
•Avoid products made with high fructose corn syrup.


also consider adding 1 - 3 grams of vitamin C at each meal to counter bacterial causes of inflammation see here:

http://www.ourhealthcoop.com/pauling.htm
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Thanks

Postby BCGuy » Mon Jan 24, 2011 6:21 pm

Thanks David,

I did check out that site and diet.

My main culprit was family history and smoking. I haven't had a smoke since the MI. But one problem is I eat almost non-stop!! No really...smiles

Before the MI we ate pretty well. Not much fast food. Grow our own non-GMO veggies in the summer, avoided hydrogenated margerine, ate whole grain breads and I don't drink at all.

I don't trust the doctors. They seem to be a little lazy when it comes to researching for themselves. They get the periodicals funded by big parma that tell them what to think.

I did watched a utube video on how the smaller particles of cholestrol may get stuck in the blood/cell barrier that causes inflamation and scarring that forces our system to deal with it by using the plaques to repair the damage done.

Have you heard this? Do I understand this correctly that the LDL carries the cholestrol to the cells and the HDL away back to the liver to recycle it?

The human body is such an amazing thing. It seems we should fix our food not our bodies.

BCGuy
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You said it.

Postby Nancy W » Thu Jan 27, 2011 2:03 am

"fix our food"

Hi BC guy, you are so right. What developed countries have done to food is the problem...

I live in Washington State, so we are sort of neighbors. One of the things that has helped me to filter through all of this has been the use of naturopathy. Initially my naturopath had me on high doses of many supplements. 18 months later, my naturopaths (have three now, two are friends) have helped me titrate the amounts down. I am spending much less money, but still seem to be gradually getting over the worst of my neuropathy, myopathy, fatigue symptoms...one day at a time!

We have changed our eating habits, buy organic in the winter, have a crop share at an organic farm all the rest of the year. We buy grass fed meat that is rasied with hormones or antibiotics. We buy wild fish. We can afford the meat and fish because we have cut the portions way down. This year, as my statin issues seem to finally be on the wane, I am also noticing my immune system seems to be better than I can remember it over many years. We are around small grandchildren who catch everything, and so far this year, we aren't catching anything from them. I believe that is due to vit D3 and Vit C, along with the good eating.

Reading Michael Pollan's books, and other books on farming and fishing, we have learned so much. The funny part is that, in America, they are trying to come up with a new "disease" category..."orthorexia." Trying to label people who try and eat "off the grid" as crazy. I say that Big Agra and Big Pharma are in cahoots on this, since moving away from tainted food and drugs only hurst thier bottom line. Boo hoo!

Okay, off my soapbox, and off to bed. I am chasing three little grandsons around 24/7 this week, as their parents are in Africa working to adopt a baby sister for them, and my husband is in Europe on business. To keep up with this small tribe takes energy...which, so far, I seem to have for a change. I am keeping my fingers crossed.

Nancy
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Postby David Staup » Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:01 am

Nancy,

The rise in heart desease (from virtually zero to what it is now) coincides exactly with the inception and rise of the food industry! see the following graph:

well I can't seem to find it right now but I will provide later!

in essence it shows a steady rise from virtually zero in 1900 until about 1970!

the modern food industry began in 1902 or 1903 with the invention of the corn flake and steel milled grains by one of the Kellog brothers. the switch to feed lot grain fed beef began at virtually the same time!

Ancel Keyes (the man responcible for the lipid hypothosis) was, get this, a nutrishanist! I suspect his "research" was funded by the food industry.
it's an interesting story:

cholesterol was first indentified in the 1820's when it was isolated as one of the substances making up gall stones! in the 1850's it was indentified as the precurser to testosterone by a morman who believed that testosterone was the "root" of immorality in man! in the 1870's one of the kellog brothers was the director of an asylum and he believed he could "cure" his patients with a low cholesterol diet that would reduce testosterone! He and his brother spent the next 25 - 30years trying to develope a pallitable very low cholesterol diet and the corn flake was born! fast forward to the 1940's and low and behold cholesterol was hit with the final straw "the lipid hypothosis" all BAD science as history data clearly shows low fat/ low cholesterol diets caused the rise in heart disease!!!!

oh how my hands hurt! but this is an amazing story illustrating that science is often twisted by beliefs that have no basis in fact..this was first recognised by Antoine Lavoisier in the 1600's and described in one of the finest work of the western world! here is the excerpt where he describes the tendancy:

"When we begin the study of any science, we are in a situation, respecting that science, similar to that of children; and the course by which we have to advance is precisely the same which Nature follows in the formation of their ideas. In a child, the idea is merely an effect produced by a sensation; and, in the same manner, in commencing the study of a physical science, we ought to form no idea but what is a necessary consequence, and immediate effect, of an experiment or observation.[4] Besides, he that enters upon the career of science, is in a less advantageous situation than a child who is acquiring his first ideas. To the child, Nature gives various means of rectifying any mistakes he may commit respecting the salutary or hurtful qualities of the objects which surround him. On every occasion his judgments are corrected by experience; want and pain are the necessary consequences arising from false judgment; gratification and pleasure are produced by judging aright. Under such masters, we cannot fail to become well informed; and we soon learn to reason justly, when want and pain are the necessary consequences of a contrary conduct.[5]

In the study and practice of the sciences it is quite different; the false judgments we form neither affect our existence nor our welfare; and we are not forced by any physical necessity to correct them. Imagination, on the contrary, which is ever wandering beyond the bounds of truth, joined to self-love and that self-confidence we are so apt to indulge, prompt us to draw conclusions which are not immediately derived from facts; so that we become in some measure interested in deceiving ourselves. Hence it is by no means to be wondered, that, in the science of physics in general, men have often made suppositions, instead of forming conclusions. These suppositions, handed down from one age to another, acquire additional weight from the authorities by which they are supported, till at last they are received, even by men of genius, as fundamental truths.

The only method of preventing such errors from taking place, and of correcting them when formed, is to restrain and simplify our reasoning as much as possible. This depends entirely upon ourselves, and the neglect of it is the only source of our mistakes. We must trust to nothing but facts: These are presented to us by Nature, and cannot deceive. We ought, in every instance, to submit our reasoning to the test of experiment, and never to search for truth but by the natural road of experiment and observation. Thus mathematicians obtain the solution of a problem by the mere arrangement of data, and by reducing their reasoning to such simple steps, to conclusions so very obvious, as never to lose sight of the evidence which guides them.[6]

so in essance it is human nature that has done us in!!!

hope you're doing well Nancy

David
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Postby David Staup » Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:52 am

Lars,
you might be interested, as a chemistry buff, to look at Lavoisier's work as he is recognised as "the father of modern chemistry"

the great part is the preface to his treatis on chemical principles but the body of it is also interesting to anyone interested in the history of science and includes many drawings of the aparatises he constructed and used.

I have it as part of a Britanica set (53 volumes) tiitled "Great books of the western world"
really makes you appreate the towering intellects of the past upon whose shoulders we toil today
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Postby lars999 » Thu Jan 27, 2011 10:55 am

David,

There are so many extremely interesting major historical figures in science. In addition to Lavoisier in France is Madame Curie, a Polish woman that did her major work in France and was awarded two Nobel Prizes for it. Mendelejev's (Дмитрий Иванович Менделеев) development of Periodic Table of Elements is about as fundemental chemistry, and physics, as one can get. Niels Bohr in Copenhagen, Danmark is more modern one. The list is long, very long. Very interesting reading!!

One can get a very in-depth understanding of very fundamental science and its tools from the works of these persons.

IF you would want to wander away from western Europe, say to ancient China, I would recommend Simon Winchester's wonderful book "The Man Who Loved China". It is about an Oxford Don that became very involved in China and uncovered the huge techonological advances that occured in ancient China, during a many centuries long flowering of technology that was smoothered to death by implementation of Confucian system of goverment and the conformist ideas that flowered during that period of Chinese history (well after Confucius died) and remain highly effective in today's China.

Lars
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Postby David Staup » Thu Jan 27, 2011 2:32 pm

Lars

I love reading stories of the history of science and heartily agree that you can learn so very much from them. the lack of jargon is what espicially draws me. I'm not sure (can't remember) if I've read the author you mentioned but the history of science starts, really, in china and the arab and persian worlds! being an amateur astronomer I am especially aware of the contributions from the east in that dicipline.

one of my absolute favorite "sets of "stories" are those of the beginnings of physical chemistry, the ideal gas laws etc. and the "discovery of absolute zero...I just loved the way it 'fell' out of the math...

I truely wish I had the mental energy to continue but alas that is not to be!
I have a collection of science texts going back to the mid 1800's (packed away somewhere) that are just fantastic! no better way to learn the basics.

in addition to curie, and bohr in the more modern world there is de'brolie, faraday,fourier oh the list is indeed long!

It's too bad we live so far apart. think of what stories we could share over coffee or tea in my case. It would seem we share interests in many areas! :)

David
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just an addition

Postby BCGuy » Fri Jan 28, 2011 10:45 pm

Hey guys,

I thought i'd just drop a name of my favorite scientist that I most admired.

Thats Nicola Tesla. A different field but great all the same.


BCGuy
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Postby David Staup » Sat Jan 29, 2011 9:52 am

Tesla was way cool.

At the science museum they have the original Van de'graph generator 2 million volts, 2 stories tall in addition they have several 6 ft tall tesla coils. three times a day the put on quite a show!!!! way cool. the operator controls everything from within a faraday cage that is hydrolically raised to within the discharge range whereupon it gets blasted by bolt after bolt of very impressive man made lightning..if you ever get to Boston check it out.

the only problem I have with Tesla is he kept secret most of his work! not fair, not fair at all
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Postby lars999 » Sat Jan 29, 2011 2:36 pm

Hello BCGuy!!

Nicola Tesla was not only a forerunner scientist, he was also an excellent businessman. One can encounter his activity in some rather unexpected places. A few years ago we were in Teluride, CO to see the major USA setting for first part of a historical novel -- Colorado Avenue --. While there I was a bit surprised to see memoral sign to Tesla's involvement in ventilation and water removal in gold and silver mines around Teleuride. On a bit of reflection, I remembered that in late 1800s- early 1900s one of technologie's major areas of applications was ventilation and water removal from deep mines, especially the gold and silver mines that were such bonanzas in western USA, Canada, and numerous other places. Lots of money and profits to be had in nearly all of the major gold and sliver mining areas -- lots and lots of money changed hands -- lots of very cutting-edge technology involved.

Colorado Avenue is main street of Teluride, CO. The novel was written in Finland Swedish by Lars Sund and a movie was made from the book, but only in Finnish. First half of book is set in Teluride, second half in western Finland, in Österbotten area. Lars Sund is a Finland Swede that did lots of geneological research about Swedish and Finnish speaking groups that immigrated to USA and published in Swedish, with Finnish translations quickly following. When we were in Teluride that day, the chief librarian asked us why a Finnish film crew was scheduled to come to Teluride!! She had not a clue about the book "Colorado Avenue" or the history behind it. Like nearly all of the gold and silver mining towns in western USA, there were many ethnic groups, each with their own languages, businesses, boarding houses, cultural centers, etc. Some of mines in Teluride, CO, Leadville, CO, Anakonda, MT, Park City, UT, etc. were owned or operated by Finnish groups, some Finnish speaking, some Swedish speaking. Stock in these mines was commonly sold in Finnland and Sweden.

Lars
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Tesla

Postby BCGuy » Mon Jan 31, 2011 1:08 pm

I guess we are little off topic here but yes Tesla was in Colorado during that time doing experiments in wireless energy transmission and his Tesla coil.
Tesla must have been a savant, with cronic obessesive disorder. He could mentally build and test his invententions before building a prototype.
He honestly tried to do good for mankind (and did) but unfortunately elitist powers have corrupted some of his greatest inventions.
President Reagans Star Wars missile defense is nothing more than the Tesla Sheild.

It is called HAARP and it exsists in Alaska. If you haven't researched it and it's potential you really should. Very fascinating indeed!! Try Google or Utube

Thank you for your replies..........BCGuy
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Postby lars999 » Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:14 pm

Well, since we have pretty well zapped this thread off topic, might as well give it bit more zappage. Pun intended, sortta.

LINK: http://www.antennamonitor.org/#/haarp-och-eiscat/4512937632

It is nearly all in Swedish but, on right hand side of first page is list of "Atmospheric Heater Facilities" in English. HAARP is hardly alone.

Lars
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