It's not just a shortage of Coenzyme Q-10

[cjbrooksjc]

Biologist: I take only one cap of EDTA in the AM with 16 oz water (over a half hour). The bottle recommends 3 tabs a day with meals; one seems to be doing me just fine. I take a little potassium, magnesium, and zinc in the afternoon to balance those elements - just in case the EDTA is taking too much out of my body. I have been working fairly strenuously the past few days, sweating like a stoker, and am not nearly as fagged out as when I was jaunting around Bermuda. I credit it to the EDTA - it's the only new element in my arsenal. ALso, I liked the links re: Vinpocetine, and will give it a try; probably at the local health food store first. Anything that will restore my faculties to their pre-Statin levels... Thanks for the tip.

Regards,

Brooks

[cjbrooksjc]

EDTA update: I signed on to the drlamarproducts.com site and found the following paragraph under EDTA:

"Perhaps one of the most compelling, but often overlooked, explanations for chelation's anti-aging, energizing effects is that EDTA "resuscitates" your cells' mitochondria. Mitochondria are the "power plants" of all cells in the body. This is the organelle responsible for producing ATP. Without ATP, life cannot exist. Loss of functioning mitochondria has been long considered to be one of the primary causes of the aging process."

Interesting, yes? Until I fell victim to this drug, I didn't even know what mitochondria were, and I still have some questions such as: if mitochondria are actually bacteria, do they come into our bodies or do we manufacture them?

Also, I found that you should be careful taking EDTA if you are hypothyroid because it can reduce your Calcium level TOO MUCH. I happen to be hypothyriod, but am taking the supplement anyway to eliminate other, unwanted elements from my system. I will stop after a week and build up my calcium base again; then we'll see. Hard to know which is the lesser of two evils in this situation, and this type of conflict seems rife in our choice of therapies, whatever we select. A sort of "damned if you do; damned if you don't" medicinal "Groundhog Day" (Bill Murry movie). OK, that's me being snide, but there's some truth in the observation.

Regards,

Brooks

[Brian C.]

Brooks, an excellent, easy-to-read book is Nick Lane's "Power, Sex, Suicide: Mitochondria and the Meaning of Life", OUP 2005.
All you ever wanted to know and more

Brian.

[cjbrooksjc]

Brian: Provocative title. I'll look into it later today.

Thanks,

Brooks

[Biologist]

I plan to order it from Amazon today. Several years ago I read his book titled "Oxygen" on the subject of...

Oxygen.

More than you would want to know about molecular oxygen -- the good, the bad and the ugly. I look forward to learning the same amount with his new one but fear I already know most of it, however, just in case...

Brooks, you are going to like the Bacteria Connection better than the sex scenes, I'm afraid. BTW, I theorize our forum's members' observed problems with antibiotics is related. What's bad for bacteria (e.g., antibiotics) is bad for mitochondria -- and for the same reasons/mechanisims. But I don't want to give away too much of the (likely) plot...

(That would especially be the case for statin-impaired mitochondria.)

Where did you get the idea for EDTA? Did Dr. Langsjoen suggest it?

The only potential major downside (besides your concern you just cited) that I have found is that it appears to lower cholesterol! That was a red flag for me. I want to check into that aspect a bit more: Remember Cinnamon -- an HMG CoA Reductase Inhibitor in disguise...

Biologist

[cjbrooksjc]

Biologist: An obvious solution is a complex idea stated in simple terms; I think the bacteriological link to antibiotics ranks right up there - never occurred to me. That they (Mitochondria) are bacteria fascinates me no end, and I look forward to an understandable explanation.

On EDTA - I stumbled onto it in an odd way - it unexpectedly jumped right onto my screen like spam while I was perusing the forum; where it came from I haven't a clue unless I mis-moused - just a rift of user testimonials about EDTA; in color. I don't remember the link.

I won't concern myself about the Cholesterol aspect of EDTA too much as long as I don't feel the familiar problems returning; also, I only plan to take the stuff for a week as a cleanse. Oh, yes, I got the Vinpocetine and after two days find crosswords a bit easier - my imagination? Who knows. I plan to keep taking it for a while anyway.

Regards,

Brooks

[baumgrenze]

I opened this thread by chance this afternoon. I hope that the rest of you have it marked as something to follow; I have another reference I think is germane.

As a result of some previous searching, I searched Google for these terms: Stocker Bowry Frei ubiquinol

*http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Stocker+bowry+frei+ubiquinol+scholar&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=

1: Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 1991 Mar 1;88(5):1646-50.
Ubiquinol-10 protects human low density lipoprotein more efficiently against lipid peroxidation than does alpha-tocopherol.
Stocker R, Bowry VW, Frei B.

Heart Research Institute, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia.

The temporal disappearance of natural antioxidants associated with human low density lipoprotein (LDL) in relation to the appearance of various classes of lipid hydroperoxides was investigated under three types of oxidizing conditions. Freshly isolated LDL from plasma of healthy subjects was free of detectable amounts of lipid hydroperoxides as measured by HPLC postcolumn chemiluminescence detection. Exposure of such LDL to a mild, constant flux of aqueous peroxyl radicals led to rapid and complete oxidation of ubiquinol-10, followed by slower partial depletion of lycopene, beta-carotene, and alpha-tocopherol. After an initial lag period of complete inhibition of detectable lipid peroxidation, formation of hydroperoxides of cholesterol esters, triglycerides, and phospholipids was observed. The onset of detectable lipid peroxidation corresponded closely with the completion of ubiquinol-10 consumption. However, small amounts of ascorbate, present as a contaminant in the LDL preparation, rather than ubiquinol-10 itself were responsible for the initial lag period. Thus, complete consumption of ubiquinol-10 was preceded by that of ascorbate, and exposure of ascorbate-free LDL to aqueous peroxyl radicals resulted in immediate formation of detectable amounts of lipid hydroperoxides. The rate of radical-mediated formation of lipid hydroperoxides in ascorbate-free LDL was low as long as ubiquinol-10 was present, but increased rapidly after its consumption, even though more than 80% and 95% of endogenous carotenoids and alpha-tocopherol, respectively, were still present. Qualitatively similar results were obtained when peroxyl radicals were generated within LDL or when the lipoprotein was exposed to oxidants produced by activated human polymorphonuclear leukocytes. LDL oxidation was reduced significantly by supplementing the lipoprotein preparation with physiological amounts of either ascorbate or ubiquinol-10. Our data show that ubiquinol-10 is much more efficient in inhibiting LDL oxidation than either lycopene, beta-carotene, or alpha-tocopherol.

PMID: 2000375 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Google Scholar tells us that this paper is SIGNIFICANT! It has been cited 290 times since its publication.

*http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&lr=&cites=13737431661660486891&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=X&oi=science_links&resnum=1&ct=sl-citedby

No, I've not read all 290 papers, not even all 290 abstracts.

What got my attention is that vitamin E is a less effective antioxidant. If you provide the LDL with a huge serum concentration of vitamin E it out-competes the ubiquinone (..ol) for the binding site on the LDL.

Co-Q10 is a fascinating topic. I only wish it was easier to find unbiased information on the uptake of the available supplemental forms in the market. Just as I do not trust Pfizer researchers to tell me the 'whole story' about lipitor, I'm uncomfortable accepting publications from researchers reporting on their firm's new Co-Q10 formulation.

Has anyone found any reliable dose/response, ideally dose/serum titer publications? My initial hypothesis is that the oil/gelcaps rely on mass action for uptake. Is this the case?

It would also be useful to know about its metabolism (pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics) and whether or not there is significant variability among individuals. This publication from 2007 suggests a 33 hour half-life.

*http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1852397

That suggests to me that a once a day input of the optimal dose might be more effective than smaller doses 3-4 times during the day. Has anyone seen a scientific rationale for multiple smaller doses?

Trying to balance my soluble dietary fiber intake as part of an overall strategy to control my serum cholesterol level is yet another topic I need to research in greater depth. It is my current understanding that in addition to sweeping up serum cholersterol, it also removes lipophilic vitamins like B12, A, D, and E, and most certainly also Co-Q10. Has anyone worked on balancing this cholesterol management question?

baumgrenze

[cjbrooksjc]

baumgrenze: without researching all your recommended links/papers, and with sole reference on my part to CoQ10 absorption, I will say that when I take (and I have) my entire daily dose of CoQ10 in the AM, my urine, during the following few hours, changes color to a brilliant green indicating to me that I am expelling something my body has not been able to use properly; I assume CoQ10. I would say, as a result of this rather basic observation, you should stay with a three dose daily regimen (200 - 300 Mg each). Additionally, I would Google Dr. Peter Langsjoen and read some of his papers on CoQ10 absorption. You may find them helpful.

Best Regards,

Brooks

[Brian C.]

Interesting questions baumgrenze. Regarding Vit E vs Ubiquinol, it seems that proper balance is critical. I do not take supplemental Vit E, relying on dietary sources (I have an egg fried in palm oil every morning, palm oil being the best balanced source of the full spectrum of tocopherols & tocotrienols that I am aware of). I am currently taking 900mg of CoQ10 in gelcaps each day spread over 3 equal doses around mealtimes. Early next month I am having my CoQ10 level tested for the first time, the director of the lab was surprised at the amount I was taking. I don't think he had encountered such large dosage before!

Regarding LDL, I would say quality over quantity should be our focus and if soluble fibre impairs our uptake of essential nutrients then use of such to control cholesterol level may be counter-productive.

I take alfalfa powder, a source of saponins, to help keep cholesterol in the high normal range since I do not want the return of xanthomas.
However, last time my endocrinologist suggested lipid profile testing I declined since I did not want it to be the focus of future consultation.

Thank you for the referred papers, I had not seen those before.

Brian.

[sos_group_owner]

I searched for a full spectrum vitamin E and couldn't find what I considered the 'whole package' (all the tocotrienols/tocopherols). Then (just by chance) last month one of the members of my support group posted a link about vitamin E. Tocotrienols and tocopherols should be taken separately.

Info at this link:
*http://www.acgrace.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=7&Itemid=7

Excerpt from the article...
"Tocopherol-Tocotrienol Combination: Containing both the natural tocopherol and tocotrienol complexes, this type is erroneously sold as “full-spectrum vitamin E as nature provides it.â€Â

[Brian C.]

But these products are artificial concoctions, unlike palm oil.

Brian.

[sos_group_owner]

Hi Brian,

Thank you for the info re: palm oil. We primarily use VCO and organic butter, but I'll be adding palm oil too. Reading "The Skinny on Fats" by Mary Enig on WAPF, there are 3 types of palm oil... Which one (or brand) do you use?

~ Palm oil is about 50% saturated, with 41% oleic acid and about 9% linoleic acid.
~ Palm kernel oil, used primarily in candy coatings, also contains high levels of lauric acid. These oils are extremely stable and can be kept at room temperature for many months without becoming rancid. Highly saturated tropical oils do not contribute to heart disease but have nourished healthy populations for millennia.72 It is a shame we do not use these oils for cooking and bakingâ€â€

[Brian C.]

Hi Fran. It's "Virgin Red". Love the smell and taste, the family found coconut too "coconutty" to their tastes. Our daughter asked for a pot to take up to Uni last week. It's ridiculously expensive here though since the only UK mail order source I have been able to find is an ethnic cosmetics supplier!


Brian.