It's not just a shortage of Coenzyme Q-10

A forum to discuss personal experiences and share information on statins and other cholesterol lowering drugs.

It's not just a shortage of Coenzyme Q-10

Postby Brian C. » Thu Jun 07, 2007 7:30 am

Dr Bruce Ames was gracious to send me several papers from his laboratory at the Children's Hospital Oakland Research Institute where research into the effects of Heme deficiency is being carried out.

For those who have not yet visited *www.talkingstatins.com yet the production of heme a (by farnelysation of protoheme), which is essential for our mitochondria, is reliant on the proper functioning of the mevalonate pathway. It is this synthesising pathway which is disrupted by statins.

I have selected this sentence from the conclusion of one of those papers (I will be happy to provide the reference if asked) to present to you all here because of it's importance :

"When the biosynthetic pathway of heme ...... is corrupted a MASSIVE OXIDATIVE DAMAGE TO THE MITOCHONDRIA, CELL AND TISSUE IS OBSERVED." (My capitals)

Needless to say nothing, to my knowledge, in the public domain has examined this likely serious effect of statinisation nor have I been able to find any research into how dose dependent this effect is.

Research by Dr Ames' team has implicated heme deficiency in the development of Alzheimer's Disease. Recent research by other teams has linked this awful condition with low cholesterol :!:

Brian.
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Postby Electrician » Tue Jun 12, 2007 4:33 am

Brian:
Correct, other things are blocked besides Co-Q10. Go to *http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cholesterol
*http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/index.html
Here you will find a chart to the HMG-CoA reductase pathway. Note the end products.
1) Cholesterol
2) Heme A
3) Dolichoh
4) Uniquinon (Co-Q10)
5) Prenylated proteins

Now go to google and search
1) Statins Heme A.
2) Stains Dolichol
3) Satins Uniquinon (co-Q10) we know this one but why not.
4) Statins Prenylated proteins

Wikipedia is also a good place to find info also.

Go to Pfizers web site *http://www.lipitor.com/content/LipitorPI.pdf
Note What they have to say:



They are proud to state that this is an early and rate limiting step in cholesterol biosynthesis. They are not equally proud to mention Heme A, Dolichol, Co-Q10, and
Prenylated Proteins. This is deception. This is telling half-truths. They know what Lipitor also blocks. They are playing the odds that we are dumb to this fact

I consider them criminals by deception and false advertisement. Who is the real terrorist?
My body tells me every day since 2003 who. 2002 was my last good year.


Hope this helps for your quest for an understanding.
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Postby Brian C. » Tue Jun 12, 2007 11:57 am

Hello Electrician, welcome to our "School of Enlightenment" :wink:

That mevalonate pathway diagram at Wikipedia was my starting point and appears at fellow spacedoc-forum-contributor xrn's website

*www.talkingstatins.com

We are currently assembling references to published research on those factors you mention which are inhibited by statins to include on that site.

With pitifully few exceptions the medical profession has swallowed pharma marketing because (a) it is easier to let others do the thinking for them and (b) it is profitable to to do so. Here in the UK the government has in place financial incentives to ensure that this remains the case.

Greed and Duplicity lie comfortably in bed together.

My best wishes for your journey to restored health and vitality

Brian.
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Postby Ray Holder » Thu Jun 14, 2007 5:34 am

Just a litle off the post subject, but Pharmanord, whose brand of Q10 I buy regularly, have just introduced a 200 mg size, and the contents list no longer includes Vitamin E. I rang them, and all capsule sizes will now have the same formula, so Dr Langsjoen's warning about the conflict between Q10 and Vit E must have even wider backing.

NB for Uk members, the 200 mg size is only a little over half the price per gram of the 100 mg size, so a very worthwhile saving to be had.

Ray
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Question for Ray

Postby sos_group_owner » Fri Jun 15, 2007 7:44 pm

Hi Ray,

Re: Dr Langsjoen's warning about the conflict between Q10 and Vit E must have even wider backing

Could you please post a link that discusses this? My understanding was that we derived more benefit from CoQ10 (gel form, not powdered) when taken WITH Vitamin E or the fattiest meal of the day.

Fran
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Postby poohhel » Sat Jun 16, 2007 2:24 pm

I too am but a tad bit confused now . . . Regarding the "statin alternatives:"

1) Can I take the recommended dosage of each supplement all at one time or do I have to split them up?
2) Do I still take the Vit E either with CoQ10 or individually?
3) Do I need to add Vit D? and how much?
4) Do I still need Vit C? and how much?
5) Is it Acteyl-L-Carnitine or L-Carnitine that I need to be taking?
6) Can I take a Vit B compound that includes all B vitamins instead of taking each of the B vitamins individually?

I have been reading so many of the posts and suggested readings/articles that now I am getting thoroughly confused by the new findings and new suggestions... I am hoping someone can clarify my understanding. ~ Helen :?
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Reply for Helen

Postby sos_group_owner » Sat Jun 16, 2007 5:32 pm

Hello Helen,

I'll try to answer some of your questions...

Fran

1) Can I take the recommended dosage of each supplement all at one time or do I have to split them up?
There's no hard and fast rule... You might want to take the B's in the AM as they can make one more energetic.

2) Do I still take the Vit E either with CoQ10 or individually?
I'm still waiting for info from Ray re: any conflict

3) Do I need to add Vit D? and how much?
Since you live in Nevada, you should be able to derive all the vitamin D you need from 10 to 15 minutes of midday sun... definitely NOT to the point of sunburn... but it's the best way to obtain vit D.

4) Do I still need Vit C? and how much?
We all need Vit C... some take very high doses... the key is to take a dose that does NOT cause loose bowels. Vit C is water soluble and excreted through our urine... You might want to split your doses up during the day rather than taking one huge dose. Best (and least expensive) is good old 'ascorbic acid'. Ester C is nothing more than expensive vit C.
Excerpt: "In humans, vitamin C is a highly effective antioxidant, acting to lessen oxidative stress..."
*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_c

Linus Pauling became an advocate for greatly increased consumption of vitamin C and other nutrients. Short article about Linus Pauling (died August 19, 1994 at age 93)...
*http://www.lbl.gov/Science-Articles/Archive/pauling-and-vitamin-c.html

5) Is it Acteyl-L-Carnitine or L-Carnitine that I need to be taking?
According to Wikipedia (great resource) "Vitamin C (ascorbic acid) is essential to the synthesis of carnitine." Some people take both forms.

Excerpt: "Carnitine, also known as L-carnitine (levocarnitine) is a quaternary ammonium compound synthesized from the amino acids lysine and methionine primarily in the liver and kidneys. It helps in the consumption and disposal of fat in the body because it is responsible for the transport of fatty acids from the cytosol into the mitochondria."
*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnitine

Excerpt: "Acetyl-L-carnitine or ALCAR, is an acetylated form of L-carnitine. ALCAR has been claimed to be superior to normal L-carnitine in terms of bioavailability."
*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetylcarnitine

6) Can I take a Vit B compound that includes all B vitamins instead of taking each of the B vitamins individually?
I recommend taking a B complex, as the B's work in concert with each other.
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Postby Ray Holder » Sun Jun 17, 2007 2:56 pm

I have tried to find the posting about Dr Langsjoen's advice that there could be a conflict between VitE and Q10, but without success, I believe he said too much vit E was the problem, but I am not sure. The original idea was that Vit E is a good anti oxidant, and Q10 helps to regenerate it when it has carried out its job. It may be that too much Vit E gets in the way of the Q10 function, but that's only conjecture.
I have tried to find a reference to the point, even on the Q10 makers' site (Kaneka) but no luck, and I forget who made the first posting.
I have wondered whether I should take small Vit E doses with the new Q10 only capsule, so I am afraid I can be of little help. Has anyone else got any info ??

Ray
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CoQ10 & Vitamin E (VE)

Postby sos_group_owner » Sun Jun 17, 2007 3:40 pm

Hi Ray & All,
This is the only documentation I could find... One must also consider these trials were done on "Male Sprague-Dawley rats"... I know a few rats (LOL)... I couldn't find any data done on humans. Will keep searching for more info.
Fran

Dietary Coenzyme Q10 and Vitamin E Alter the Status of These Compounds in Rat Tissues and Mitochondria1
Wissam H. Ibrahim, Hemmi N. Bhagavan*, Raj K. Chopra{dagger} and Ching K. Chow2

Department of Nutrition and Food Science, and Kentucky Agricultural Experiment Station, University of Kentucky, Lexington, KY 40506; * Hoffmann-La Roche Incorporated, Nutley, NJ 07110; and {dagger} Tishcon Corporation, Westbury, NY 11590

2To whom correspondence should be addressed.

Vitamin E (VE) and coenzyme Q (CQ) are essential for maintaining functions and integrity of mitochondria, and high concentrations of these compounds are found in their inner membranes. This study was conducted to examine the interaction between exogenously administered CQ10 and VE in rats. Male Sprague-Dawley rats (12 mo old) were fed a basal diet (10 IU VE or 6.7 mg RRR-{alpha}-tocopherol equivalent) supplemented with either 0 or 500 mg CQ10, and 0, 100 or 1310 IU VE/kg diet for 14 or 28 d. Liver, spleen, heart, kidney, skeletal muscle, brain and serum were analyzed for the levels of CQ10, CQ9 and VE. CQ10 supplementation significantly (P < 0.05) increased CQ10 concentration in the liver and spleen (total and mitochondria) and serum, but not in other organs. Interestingly, rats supplemented with CQ10 plus 100 IU VE/kg diet had significantly higher CQ10 levels in the liver and spleen, whereas those supplemented with CQ10 plus 1310 IU VE/kg diet had lower levels, compared with those supplemented with CQ10 alone. As expected, dietary VE increased VE content in all of the organs analyzed in a dose-dependent manner. However, rats fed the basal diet supplemented with CQ10 had significantly higher VE levels in liver (total and mitochondria) than those not receiving CQ10 supplementation. CQ9 levels were higher in the liver and spleen, lower in skeletal muscle and unaltered in brain, serum, heart and kidney of rats supplemented with CQ10 compared with the controls. These data provide direct evidence for an interactive effect between exogenously administered VE and CQ10 in terms of tissue uptake and retention, and for a sparing effect of CQ10 on VE. Data also suggest that dietary VE plays a key role in determining tissue retention of exogenous CQ10.

*http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/abstract/130/9/2343

And more discussion at this link:
*http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/130/9/2343

A number of studies have examined the interaction between VE and CQ10 with inconsistent findings. For example, Zhang et al. (1995Citation and 1996)Citation showed that dietary CQ was taken up only into liver, spleen and plasma, and not into kidney, heart, muscle and brain; VE supplementation increased the levels of both endogenous and exogenous CQ in the liver and plasma, whereas dietary CQ10 had no effect on tissue VE. On the other hand, Lass et al. (1999)Citation found that mice treated orally with CQ10 had higher CQ10 levels in the serum, liver and kidney, and higher VE levels in the mitochondria of skeletal muscle and liver. They also found that mice treated orally with both VE and CQ10 had lower CQ10 in liver mitochondria compared with those supplemented with CQ10 alone. To gain a better understanding of the interaction between VE and CQ10, we examined the influence of exogenously administered CQ10 and VE on the concentrations of exogenous and endogenous CQ and VE in rat tissues and mitochondria.
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Postby Biologist » Sun Jun 17, 2007 5:33 pm

Ray,

Here's the post you were looking for, I believe.

http://www.spacedoc.net/board/viewtopic.php?p=4571#4571

In my judgment, the two revelations to come out seem to be:

1) The new CoQ10 type Dr. L is recommending (QH-absorb by Jarrow) is superior partly because it is more bioavailable. (But may be a more "fragile molecule," I have surmised, and may require more care such as not allowing it to over heat in shipping). I plan to switch to this stuff for the long term.

2) Supplementing with too much Vitamin E may not be a good idea BECAUSE IT OUT COMPETES CoQ10 for transport into the mitochondria. In Brook's case, his blood serum ratio was WAY OFF -- way too much Vitamin E. He was getting virtually no CoQ10 even though he was supplementing with it heavily. Now, he WAS supplementing Vitamin E a WHOLE LOT at the time though. However, some of us have concluded that we will not supplement with Vitamin E anymore -- me included -- as we likely get enough from diet. (I eat a lot of eggs, for one.) There was a lot of Vitamin E in my Sam's Club CoQ10 (which I will not be buying anymore). It was d-Alpha Tocopherol, which is not the worst kind as it is natural and not the cheap synthetic type (as I understand it) found in their Vitamin E capsule formulations which is dl-Alpha Tocopheryl Acetate -- I will never take THAT again. The small amount of Vitamin E found in the new stuff by Jarrow is gamma tocopherol, and that is good (and more expensive). The idea, if you are going to supplement Vitamin E, is to have correct ratios of the various types of Vitamin E, and the problem is the most abundant type (the alpha) -- particularly the cheap synthetic variation of it probably -- even OUT COMPETES the other types in the mix! So supplementing with Vitamin E the wrong way (the cheap way) may be worse than not supplementing at all! To recap: Vitamin E out competes CoQ10. AND the alpha version (natural or synthetic) of Vitamin E ALSO OUT COMPETES the other necessary versions of Vitamin E (i.e., gamma, beta, and maybe a couple other varieties of it).

One other thing. Some people have found that CoQ10 gives them problems like headaches. I would recommend that they try the new stuff to see if it works better for them. Probably will not, but it might. And the value of CoQ10 supplementation appears to be so important that it is worth the small chance that it might be more palatable to them if it means they can now supplement with it.

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Postby poohhel » Fri Jun 22, 2007 7:18 pm

Thank you Fran, Ray, and Biologist for the answers and feedback. I think I have it all straight now. :D
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Postby cjbrooksjc » Sun Jul 01, 2007 9:50 pm

Great God a-mighty but you folks are prolific! I'm gone three weeks and I have to spend two hours reading... good stuff tho. And, I see we attracted some new disciples. BTW: Biologist has the right info on the Vit E wierdness - resource contention; who knew? But the info is straight from Dr. Langsjoen.

Regards,

Brooks
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Reply for Biologist

Postby sos_group_owner » Mon Jul 02, 2007 10:53 pm

Great info about vitamin E. We've been taking 'Advanced Gamma E Complex' by NOW Foods for quite awhile now... contains all four 'Tocopherols' and all four 'Tocotrienol'. Great prices and quality.
*http://store.thecatalog.com/0810.html
Don't take vitamin E at the same time as CoQ10 now.
Their "Ultra B-12" (sub-lingual) is excellent.
*http://store.thecatalog.com/0452.html
Their CoQ10 contains only 30 IU's of d-alpha Tocopherol.

I have no vested interest in NOW Foods... just been using their products for a couple of years now and very pleased with them.

Fran
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Postby Brian C. » Tue Jul 03, 2007 1:05 am

That's exactly what I was taking Fran until Brooks reported Langsjoen's caveat. Still got half a jar.

Brian.
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Postby cjbrooksjc » Thu Jul 05, 2007 3:07 pm

Brian C. a small clarification: Dr. Langsjoen told me not to take any Vit E; that is, additional Vit E - there is a small amount in the Qsorb tabs that Jarrow sent me, and unless the next shipment I get has none, I assume a little is OK. MY test results (done during my visit there) showed an ASTRONOMICAL spike in available Vit E; however, he had made the 'no Vit E' recommendation prior to the test. BTW: have you heard from Jeff (xrn) at all?

Regards,

Brooks
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Postby Biologist » Thu Jul 05, 2007 9:42 pm

How did the trip go, Brooks?

Good to see you back.

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Postby Brian C. » Fri Jul 06, 2007 1:36 am

Hi Brooks

I'm now taking Q-Absorb along with the PharmaNord 200mg to give me 600mg p.d. I eat plenty of eggs and nuts so I guess I'm getting plenty of natural Vit E without supplementing.

Jeff & I are in weekly 'phone contact. He's very busy with his course at the moment (end of year!) and is also now quite involved with THINCS :wink:

Regards

Brian.
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Postby cjbrooksjc » Sat Jul 07, 2007 12:23 pm

Biologist/Brian: The trip... Ah yes... I don't know if I like cruises. This was my first (that I had to pay for), and it was not exactly what I had expected. We went with old school friends of mine and some other folks who were associated with us, and that was the best part. The isle of Bermuda is beautiful; the people, the water, the ecosystem; everything but the price for anything you buy (booze not included). We had a fish and chips lunch in a local pub for $73.00!
The food and entertainment were superb, but there were too many people on the ship to suit me, crowds not being my thing. I do love the sea though, and to be in deep water again was invigorating even though the ship didn't move the way I had thought it would - it didn't move with the sea but steamed flat as a board all the way to and from the island. As far as sustained endurance: this damnable drug has really done a job on me; I couldn't keep up often without focused effort - truly pxxed me off! And I had to nap when I would rather have done something else. All-in-all it was a great visit with old friends, but you can keep the accommodations . Id take a bunk on a destroyer anytime (it's a heck of a lot cheaper too!). On another note, I found something else that seems to be making a recent improvement in my overall health: EDTA. It's an amino acid; the same element used in chelation therapy injections. One or two tablets a day before meals with lots of water, and the EDTA cleans your system of calcium deposits, mercury, lead; you know, it does the same thing chelation therapy is designed to do. I feel decidedly better and the effects were felt with a day or two of starting the stuff. I don't know, I hate to publish too soon, but I really do feel better. I put gutters on my daughter's house yesterday and felt only the sort of tired a healthy person might expect from a day of exertion. I was just reading about it and went to a local health food store and got some (they kept it in the back?!). There's a web site on the bottle: *www.drlamarproducts.com. I haven't looked at it yet. It's another bone for our dish, and it's inexpensive, about $40 for 90 caps.
And Vit E: I eat lots of eggs too; so, I guess I really never needed it. Also glad to hear Jeff is still on the field. I often thought he might be doing too much - just READING about his activities used to tire me out. I'll try to keep you updated on this EDTA stuff. That's it.

Regards to all,

Brooks
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Postby Brian C. » Sat Jul 07, 2007 1:34 pm

"We had a fish and chips lunch in a local pub for $73.00! "

Hmm, UK prices eh? Well, it IS one of our colonies :wink:

Sorry to hear your cruise wasn't as enjoyable as you hoped. My wife is keen to try one sometime (perhaps the Baltic) but you sound like me!

I will be having more chelation this year since I am having my mercury amalgams replaced with something hopefully less toxic. Rather than taking oral EDTA I am taking Vit K2/menaquinone-7 which has similar effect.

Yes, Jeff is Mr Dynamite :lol: - but then he hasn't been statinised like us.

Brian.
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Postby Biologist » Sat Jul 07, 2007 3:06 pm

Thanks for the update, Brooks.

It sounds like to me that we are in the same boat (pardon that :) ) on improvement in many ways. Endurance is my biggest concern at this point too. I now take a couple of 30 minute naps per day and will be experimenting to see what is the optimal amount of time for each -- maybe 15 minutes will do for each? I know that over 30 minutes appears to be diminishing returns (if any improvement at all over 30 minutes). It makes an amazing difference though. My vision is always near perfect afterwards and lasts for several hours usually before getting a bit fuzzy again, and I feel better. Right after a nap (or in the early morning) my vision is probably measurably better than 20/20. I think that closing my eyes for a time in near complete darkness (which may be a factor) helps replenish neural APT levels. Vision takes a massive amount of processing power compared to other senses, and hence the ATP drain. Anyway, that's my current theory -- that at least seems to "match the facts" with me. My hope (and belief) is that mitochondria will replicate enough over time that supplies will start keeping up with demand much better. I suspect I have already seen some of that type improvement, but its hard to say as the picture has been (pleasantly) "complicated" in recent weeks. Read on.

I will check into your EDTA idea next. Thanks for mentioning it. "Your method" sounds a lot less "invasive" and more convenient such that I will likely go ahead and try it out. Shots/IVs and involving a doctor (or equivalent) etc., sounds like enough of a hassle to continue to discourage me at this point. Talking a pill, I can do. I will also do some more research on the whole idea while I'm at it, when I get a chance. The idea makes sense to me -- I remember doing reading on celation therapy years ago (in the 70's in a Penthouse article, believe it or not -- which years later I found referenced in another more main stream publication). The fact that western medicine shunned it so badly is now even more appealing to me as an advertisement for it!

I have recently been more interested in reading here than writing for some reason and have some catching up to do in that regard before long maybe. Vinpocetine will be on the menu. Scratch that, I'll do it now. Other (maybe lesser, as this one's good) things will be on the menu later on:

This following post section is intended for several posters' notice too including bucho and Carbuffmom and several others. I hope everyone will see it.

Like you, Brooks, I very much understand "publishing too soon" concerns, but I am convinced Vinpocetine works for me. It is my current favorite supplement. It seems to improve my vision fairly reliably and perhaps sharpen my mental focus. If it is a placebo effect, no problem. I'll take it. If it improves my vision, a placebo is fine with me!

My first few tries made me feel kind of anxious, so I gave it up. When I tried it months later, that was gone. Why? I have no explanation, but I did find the following quote in some of my online readings:

"The Gedeon Richter company of Hungary
markets Vinpocetine as Cavinton in Europe.
They have funded more than one hundred
studies on Vinpocetine, often comparing its
effects to other smart drugs. The incidence
of side effects in humans using the drug
orally is usually less than one percent, with
the rare unwanted effects usually disappearing
with continued use."

Here is what's on the label of the stuff I take:

"Directions: Take one capsule three times
daily or as directed by your health care
professional.

"Description: Clinical research shows that
Vinpocetine may increase cerebral ATP
levels and enhance oxygen and glucose
utilization. It also increases blood flow
and is especially beneficial to brain and
retinal arteries.

"Caution: Do not use this product if pregnant
or lactating.

Dr. Graveline recommends trying it, and now I do too, from experience. Also it's dirt cheap. I have a hunch I will always have it around. It does not noticeably improve physical energy levels for me, but the vision and "mental energy" thing appears to be real. Note that it absorbs better with a meal.

Here is where I buy mine:

*http://vrp.com/ProductPage.aspx?ProdID=7141

Here is some reading linked from the site:

*http://vrp.com/articles.aspx?page=LIST&ProdID=1734&zType=2

*http://vrp.com/articles.aspx?page=LIST&ProdID=558&zType=2

Here is an interesting site. I wondering whether to include it or not. Why not? Here it is. Take it for what it's worth, if you can figure that out:

*http://www.erowid.org/experiences/subs/exp_Vinpocetine.shtml

PS. Brian, I seem to be sleeping much better these days. Thanks for the L-Tryptophan idea. I'm sold. I now buy in bulk. I take it in combination with Melatonin. Again, if it's a placebo, so be it. I like it. It is also good for other things too such as a general serotonin enhancer. And again, since the pharmceutical companies were so up in arms against it several years ago, that's all the more of an endorsement for it. And bucho, the pharmaceutical you recommended is also on my list to have on hand in the future when needed. I have not been back to see my doctor (to get for a prescription) in months. My existing prescription at the pharmacy for Ambien will likely "time out" before I ever decide to fill it. I do not ever plan to use that again, even though I liked the feeling it gave before bed time better than a couple of beers after a long day (which I no longer do either, but am recently experimenting with a beer or two every now and then). It's effects were more direct and immediate than the tryptophan, but the health costs and expense were not worth it.

Today's factoid: Acetyl L-Carnitine HCL (the pure powdered form I now use) tastes pretty good in water (it's capsulated partner, Alpha Lipoic Acid, does not). In fact, I like it. It goes into solution completely and faster than powered sugar -- reminds me of lab day in chemistry class in days of old. Opening a capsule of the other stuff (even high quality Acetyl L-Carnitine capsules from Jarrow) and pouring it into a glass of water is a little less impressive, while it does eventually all dissolve. It has a slightly different taste too (probably due to necessary additives for high speed machine "packaging") than the pure stuff I get from Lidtke Technologies. The bulk powder is a little less convenient maybe, but it is cheaper, and again, more pure (for whatever that may be worth).

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