Exertional Intolerance: Nocturia

[Biologist]

I mentioned previously in this thread that I had a bit of a set back recently. Since I do not know for sure why that happened (and speculated that it was getting over a cold and/or some alcohol), it may have also been due to some supplements I had recently started taking. They are likely innocent bystanders, but just to be sure, I quit taking three of them. They are as follows:

1) S-Adenosyl Methionine (SAM-e). I started this about two weeks prior to my setback. It is a supplement that apparently "competes" with antidepressants such a prozac, I believe. It takes six weeks or longer before you are to expect results. Out of caution that this could have conceivably been part of my set back, I quit it, but do not rule out trying it again in a year or so maybe. I would rather consider myself "stabilized" from statins before experimenting. At the time, I was doing real well so it may have made sense to try. (And I am now close to being back to that state with some possible exceptions, one being a weaker left arm, probably neuropathy based.) Another thing to consider is that it is expensive and that the pills have to be babied from heat, light, moisture, etc. Not a very stable molecule. So there is always the concern of a "dud batch" of ineffective pills. This stuff has been advertised on TV a good bit recently.

Here is a label on the box mine came in:

"Warning:
Individuals using prescribed medications such as
antidepressants, including Serotonin Re-Uptake
Inhibitors and MAO Inhibitors should consult a
physician before using. Individuals with Parkinsons
disease, bi-polar disorder or manic depression
should not use SAM-e"

2) DHEA. I started taking this a week or so before the SAM-e at about 25mg per day. Probably of no significance to my setback, but I axed it anyway and may resume later on.

3) Cinnamon. I was taking a fairly high dose of about half a teaspoon per day or more starting about the same time as the DHEA. My concern here is that I do not know the mechanism for its ability to lower cholesterol (which again, I do not consider important). I like the fact that it appears to be able to lower triglycerides. I think this is important. But as I do not know how it works, my concern is that it may use the same means as statins -- and my recent new symptoms seemed to be consistent with restarting statins in a way. I have not had the time to try to research this matter much, but will leave cinnamon off for now. I did read the following from the following two URLs:

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinnamon

"European health agencies have recently warned against consuming high amounts of cassia, due to a toxic component called coumarin.[1]This is contained in much lower dosages in Ceylon cinnamon and in Cinnamomum burmannii. Coumarin is known to cause liver and kidney damage in high concentrations.

The essential oil of cinnamon also has antimicrobial properties (PMID 16104824). This property may allow cinnamon to extend the shelf life of foods.[citation needed]
In the media, "cinnamon" has been reported to have remarkable pharmacological effects in the treatment of type II diabetes. However, the plant material used in the study (PMID 14633804) was actually cassia, as opposed to true cinnamon. Please refer to cassia's medicinal uses for more information about its health benefits. Cinnamon has traditionally been used to treat toothache and fight bad breath and its regular use is believed to stave off common cold and aid digestion.[2]

Cinnamon is also used as an insect repellent. It is widely used when a manufactured insecticide is not wanted or cannot be used because of possible health side effects or allergies"

_____________

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassia#Medicinal_use

"A 2003 study published in the DiabetesCare journal[1] followed Type 2 diabetics ingesting 1, 3 or 6 grams of cassia daily. Those taking 6 grams shows changes after 20 days, and those taking lesser doses showed changes after 40 days. Regardless of the amount of cassia taken, they reduced their mean fasting serum glucose levels 18–29%, their triglyceride levels 23–30%, their LDL cholesterol 7–27%, and their total cholesterol 12–26%, over others taking placebos.

The effects, which may even be produced by brewing a tea from cassia bark, may also be beneficial for non-diabetics to prevent and control elevated glucose and blood lipid levels. Cassia's effects on enhancing insulin sensitivity appear to be mediated by polyphenols [4]. Despite these findings, cassia should not be used in place of anti-diabetic drugs, unless blood glucose levels are closely monitored and its use is combined with a strictly controlled diet and exercise program.

There is also much anecdotal evidence that consumption of cassia has a strong effect in lowering blood pressure, making it potentially useful to those suffering from hypertension. The USDA has three ongoing studies that are monitoring the blood pressure effect.

Though the spice has been used for thousands of years, there is concern that there is as yet no knowledge about the potential for toxic buildup of the fat-soluble components in cassia, as anything fat-soluble could potentially be subject to toxic buildup. There are no concluded long term clinical studies on the use of cassia for health reasons.

European health agencies have warned against consuming high amounts of cassia, due to a toxic component called coumarin.[2]"

_____

Biologist

[cjbrooksjc]

Biologist: Thanks for the very interesting write-ups and cautions.
SAMe is not something I've added to my regimen YET, but DHEA, yes and Cinnamin on a staggered basis. I don't feel I've had any setbacks due to taking them.

Thanks,


Brooks

[garystil]

Bucho,

Nocturia has happened to me a couple of times in the past year or so.

I considered bladder infection, inflammation, irritation, urethra infection, prostate problem, prostatitis etc.

I did a number of things to tackle it and both times it ultimately went away but I could never pinpoint what it was that helped me.

I realise that SALT is not a good thing, but I honestly think that by licking a bit of salt it slowed down the nocturia. The body needs a certain amount of salt in the body and when you drink too much water, the body expels fluid to try and maintain the appropriate percentage of salt.

I found that when I ingested a small amount of salt the urge to pee diminished. I'm thinking perhaps that when you exercise, you lose salt from your body and urinating is perhaps your body's way of maintaining the required percentage of salt.

I'm just thinking out aloud, so I'm sorry if it sounds like bulldust!

[Ray Holder]

Hi Carbuffmom

You posted that you are experiencing muscle loss, might I suggest that Lcarnitine is needed to combat this, I had severe muscle loss, and Lcarnitine is the one to keep it at bay. Acetyl carnitine seems to work OK for muscle pain where it only has to escort waste materials out of the muscle, but wastage occurs through the inability of fat to reach the mitochondria if insufficient Lcarnitine is available and the muscle feeds on its own protein to maintain necessary functioning, and a kind of starvation wastage occurs.

I take over 6 grams of Lcarnitine a day, I have worked up to that figure over the last 4 years, and I already had an extra need for carnitine due to previous polio, made much worse by the statin. If you take Lcarnitine, that does both the escorting in to the muscle and also the clearing away afterwards, so acetyl carnitine is just superfluous.

I suggest you should cease taking the acetyl version, and work up on the L type, I believe you take 2x500 mg a day, try moving up by 500 mg more a day, taking about 3 or 4 days at this level, and adding more if you are not feeling the benefit at the end of the 4 days, and so on, but you may get loose bowel problems if you go beyond your needs, and then have to cut back by one 500 mg step.

I lose what little back muscle strength I have if I let my carnitine dosage drop.

Aside--- cinnamon is all cassia, just different members of the same species.

Hope that helps

Ray

[cjbrooksjc]

garystil, bucho: G... Maybe you refer to an electrolyte imbalance; that is a possible ingredient. But, Bucho, instead of taking a little salt, try, if you are in the US, adding some Pedialite (brand name) to fruit juice to provide the proper balance. Don't use Gatorade or the like; they include artificial sweeteners.


Regards,

Brooks

[carbuffmom]

Ray:

Thanks for the info. I will try increasing the lcarnitine as you have instructed. I appreciate all of the helpful suggestions. At this point, I have nothing to lose. DEB

[Biologist]

Carbuffmom,

I have done some online reading on ALS, and also reread Dr. Graveline's presentation on the matter from this website. I believe I recognized your case there.

Since your appointment with the specialist is in May you may want to wait for that, but it may make sense to go ahead and educate yourself further on Idebenone as discussed in the thread "Mitochondrial Restoration" in this forum. I do not have time to discuss all my observations and "connect-the-dots associations" but you will likely make the same ones by reading the hyperlinks and study reviews. Your knowledge of this angle may be timely when talking to the specialist.

BTW, I mentioned to Brooks in a post yesterday there that one of the experiments cited was with rats where in fact it was on people. You have to read carefully to see where the discussion of one study ends and the next begins.

Based on my reading, your taking creatine certainly appears to be supported regardless of your ultimate diagnosis. I will start taking it too. Keeping the neurons and supporting cells well energized appears to be important in the case of ALS, or if ALS-like symptoms maybe evident. The enhancement of nerve growth factor would also appear to be a particular benefit.

Biologist

[Biologist]

I should have added that after my reading it's still my guess that you don't have ALS.

You wrote the following:

"I have been taking L carnitine for about a year now.
I added the Acetyl about a month ago. I take 500mg
of each twice a day and I am thinking about adding a
third dosage. I just don't know how much is too much."
--carbuffmom

If it were me, I would add the third dose -- in fact, I did some time ago (and often do a fourth dose at bedtime as of recently). That would get you to the same amount that subjects were taking in one of the relevant studies cited on this forum where significant neurological improvements were demonstrated. It was conducted for over 33 months if I remember right, and acetyl-L-carnitine was reported to be "well tolerated." Another reason to take at least 1,500 mg per day is the fact that so little of it is actually absorbed (i.e., 15% to 20%). We might assume that the specific type / brand given to subjects in the study would be the most well absorbed that they could find. Ours might not be as good. Also, I have read several times that the therapeutic effects are enhanced by taking Alpha Lipoic Acid at the same time. I take a total of 600 mg per day (two tablets) will a meal. (The acetyl should be taken on an empty stomach to maximize absorption.)

I'll be rooting for you and look forward to hearing what the specialist has to say.

Biologist

[SusieO]

Carbuffmom; for almost a year they thought I had MS and I, myself, was almost in agreement - yet I knew that my problems came from Lipitor. All the tests came back showing no MS - so now they label me as having a musculoskeletal problem that may never have a name! WHAT A JOKE - since I know the name...statin damage! I would bet you don't have ALS and pray that you don't!

Biologist; I took cinnamon capsules for less than a week and got the same results as if I was on Lipitor i.e. pain/weakness. I also got this from the niacin in a multi vitamin, so beware!

[carbuffmom]

Biologist:

Thanks so much for the info and encouragement. I will look into the idebenone. I will also increase the lcarnitine 500 mg at a time. For whatever reason, I missed my afternoon dosage and my arm weakness was most definitely pronounced. I shall not miss another dosage. I also take ALA---300 mg per meal.

I will try to be informed when I see the ALS specialist. I do appreciate the advice and encouragement received here on this forum.

Susie: thanks, too, for the kind thoughts.

My best to you all, DEB

[harley2ride]

I don't know about after exercise or exertion, but since getting my statin injury, I can't sleep at all, without sleep medication. I can stay up for days, and then without meds, maybe sleep 1 - 2 hours, then be wide awake and ready to go. I have been on daily sleep meds for over 2 yrs now. I've had to change meds 3 times, as I seem to become allergic to meds after being on them for an extended period. Over the past three years (after taking meds for some time), I've become allergic to Hydrocodone, Ambitriptyline, and two others, which I can't remember the names of right now, because of this damn off and on memory problems. Arrrgggghhh...

[Brian C.]

harley2ride have you tried L-tryptophan for your sleep problem?
My wife takes 2 or 3 capsules every day and it has been a great help.
Also by taking this she has weathered her first winter without Prozac since the death of our son 9 years ago.

This source supplies particularly pure L-tryptophan :

*http://www.biochemicals.com/products.htm

Brian.

[harley2ride]

Thanks Brian.

I do eat turkey sandwiches quite often. Does that count???

I may look into at least trying it. Thanks for the info.

[Biologist]

SusieO, you write:

"Biologist; I took cinnamon capsules for less
than a week and got the same results as if I
was on Lipitor i.e. pain/weakness. I also got
this from the niacin in a multi vitamin, so
beware!"
--SusieO

Thanks for your comments! Because of your observations -- in addition to my own long-held sneaking suspicions -- I decided to see what I could find.

Check this out:

"The antioxidant activity of this dietary spice confirms
that along with its influence on the flavor of food, it
possesses potential health benefits by inhibiting lipid
peroxidation. Animal studies indicate that dietary
cinnamate inhibits hepatic HMG-CoA-reductase
activity, resulting in lower hepatic cholesterol content
as well as suppressing lipid peroxidation via the
enhancement of hepatic antioxidant enzyme
activities"

*http://www.future-drugs.com/doi/full/10.1586/14750708.3.1.113

Based on this and several other sites found (e.g., from the cattle rasing industry and the food processing industry), consider Cinnamon to be a Statin !!

I now believe it was responsible for my recent set back which I discussed earlier in this thread. I am now more likely to give additional consideration to your reaction to the small amount of Niacin found in a multivitamin. You must have a very sensitive system now to have been able to detect that. Niacin is important for us to have for other reasons, but it may be particularly important for statin recoverees not to have any more than necessary. I will be on the look out for more info on this.

I will probably eventually start a new thread titled something like the following just to make sure we are all aware of the issue:

"Cinnamon: Just Another Statin?"

And I may go back and add new posts to all threads where I have mentioned Cinnamon in the past. Thanks again for getting me motivated to look into it.

Biologist

[cjbrooksjc]

This is maddening! OK, I'll drop the Cinnamon entirely (I wasn't taking much anyway). I KNOW the previous detail I read on Cinnamon referred to Triglyceride reduction; not HMG CoA Reductase inhibition. I was going to offer a favorable four day report on Idebenone, but I'll wait a while before I promote it or anything else. Thanks, Biologist, for your perseverance. This seems so evident; how could we ALL have missed it?

Brooks

[Biologist]

"...how could we ALL have missed it?"
--Brooks

I have given that some thought and come up with the idea that there are just no entities with any Economic Incentive for this to be known -- not the drug industry, not the "cinnamon industry", not the media... You name it, there's just no bucks to be made in getting the word out.

BTW, add Garlic to the list. Another Statin !!

*http://jds.fass.org/cgi/content/full/88/7/2508

"The synthesis of the isoprenoid units in methanogenic
archaea is catalyzed by the HMG-CoA reductase in a
similar way as for cholesterol synthesis in humans.
Numerous studies have demonstrated the inhibitory
effects of garlic-derived organosulfur compounds on
cholesterol biosynthesis in hepatocytes by inhibition
of the HMG-CoA reductase (Gebhardt and Beck,
1996; Cho and Xu, 2000). Miller and Wolin (2001)
demonstrated that products, such lovastatin and
mevastatin, that decrease cholesterol production in
humans by inhibiting HMG-CoA reductase, have the
potential to specifically inhibit rumen methanogenic
archaea without affecting rumen fermentative
bacteria (Eubacteria) because of their different
membrane lipid composition."

Biologist

[carbuffmom]

Thanks, guys, for ferreting out all of this info. It could prove to be invaluable down the road. Deb

[Biologist]

Thanks, Carbuffmom. Have you taken any cinnamon or garlic since you quit statins?

When I was researching amyotrophic lateral sclerosis on the web, one of the websites I found indicated that there were no definitive diagnostics for the disease yet, but some promising possibilities were in the works. Later, I checked out the following URL and found a more recent (2006) update on progress. It will be interesting to see if you have any lower levels of any of the three proteins if a spinal tap is done. Further, you may want to request such a test (Ouch!) in the event it is not ordered but they still have questions regarding a diagnosis? I suspect a similar mechanism (i.e., damaged motor neurons of the central nervous system) to be the cause of my arm tremor under motion which I have previously described (which worsened recently with my "set back" but now seems stabilized but no better). That does not mean either of us have a seriously progressive degenerative disease, which of course, is what ALS is. I still have a hunch that what I have (or we have?) may be here to stay for a while, if not permanently. I will keep you apprised if I notice any change one way or the other.

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amyotropic_lateral_sclerosis

"Recently researchers from Mount Sinai School of Medicine
identified three proteins that are found in significantly lower
concentration in the cerebral spinal fluid of patients with
ALS than in healthy individuals. Evaluating the levels of
these three proteins proved 95% accurate for diagnosing
ALS. These are the first biomarkers for this disease and
may be first tools for confirming diagnosis of ALS
published in Feb 2006's issue of Neurology. With current
methods, the average time from onset of symptoms to
diagnosis is around 12 months. Improved diagnostic
markers may provide a means of early diagnosis, allowing
patients to receive relief from symptoms years earlier. [10]"

Brooks and Susie0,

Based on your comments and experiences I have removed niacin (Vitamin B-3) from my regime. I was getting 20 mg from my multivitamin and another 50 mg from my B-complex vitamin everyday for a total of 70 mg -- and that is not too far from the very lowest level of "therapeutic use" levels I found on the Internet (with the lowest starting at 100 mg up to several thousand mg) for cholesterol control. I also noticed that the recommended dosage was exceeded for many of the other vitamins in my B-complex but not for niacin which leads one to wonder if they might have already considered it high for such an official recommendation. We may still have a slight phobia in this country (and around the world) for previously having too little in our diets which caused some serious problems. You can research that sometime. The current recommended dosage may be a remnant of an over reaction from decades ago. Thanks for the idea to remove it.

Biologist

[cjbrooksjc]

bio: Quickly: I removed B3 from my regimen because I am sensitive to it (rashes, watery eyes, etc.), and didn't want those side effects to complicate my situation. The only reason I know of to remove it otherwise is that it helps keep Statin drugs in the system longer, and if you're not taking Statins... well. BUT, judging from the past few comms, I may be wrong. Thoughts?

Regards,

Brooks

[Biologist]

Brooks,

High dosages of B-3 are currently (and "historically") used as a means of lowering cholesterol -- not a good idea generally, as we now know.

Also, a byproduct of its metabolism is homocystein (sp?) -- a real no no, as we know.

But in addition, I believe there are grounds to suspect a special sensitivity to any such statin-effecting substance by "statin recoverees" based on "rechallenge" results which are generally worse than had someone simply never gone off the statin in the first place. Even going back on a smaller dosage seems to have a magnified effect on adverse events for some reason. We are more susceptible after damage, it would seem.

How in the world were you able to isolate B-3 as the cause of your reactions? Is that common in the population? Going off fixes it? When did you figure this out?

BTW, I misspoke. 20 mg is the recommended amount for B-3. That is what is included in my multivitamin. The B-complex has 50 mg (250%). However, they upped several other B vitamins by orders of magnitude (e.g., 3,000%). So my earlier argument still holds -- while not as convincingly.

Biologist