COQ10....question....

[catspajamas]

I belong to the Worst pills.org site and they say you should not use COQ10 to prevent or "cure" muscle damage caused by statins.....all I could get of their "whys" is that the manufacturing is not regulated and you really don't know what you are getting in those capsules.....so...my question...how do we know a supplement is of good quality...and does anyone know of one place that we can order supplements that we know are safe and what they are supposed to be???

[Darrell]

This should help:
[http://www.consumerlab.com/results/CoQ10.asp]

[SusieO]

Catspajamas I have wondered the same thing...if the Rx drugs are hurting us how do we know or not know if a supplement from the health food store is any better???

I have had pain/weakness from trying Cinnamon Capsules and as of lately from the Niacin that is in a multi-vitamin. I started back on the CoQ10, but have issues with awful heart burn when I take it.

In my life right now I feel like I am better off to not take anything no matter who says it will help. The cost for all these supplements that are not covered by insurance are not cheap by any means and how do we really know they are better for us?

I took CoQ10 when my pain/weakness first came out 3 years ago and stopped taking it - yet I feel I did become stronger and was not on it. Now, when I had this nasty recurrence of pain and weakness I went back on it and wonder "if I quit the CoQ10 will I still recover the same way I would if I stop taking it".

All this information folks have spent hours researching is marvelous and I am not trying to knock anyone down - I just keep wondering does anyone really know how to fix the damage that has been done without doing further damage...are we better to let our body cure itself?

I hope no one "flames' me for this post, but it gets so frustrating to read to take this and take that and in the end how do we know if it made us better?

I was doing pretty good until I took the vitamins and now I am back to pain/weakness to the point I use a cane again and can barely walk through the grocery store. Last summer was the best time I have had in 3 or 4 years since stopping Lipitor...I was walking over a mile everyday and I was not taking any type of supplement that we read to take on the boards. I feel my body had time to heal on its own.

Again, please don't jump down my neck as we are all entitled to our opinions and I am one who has to wonder if the supplements would do more harm to me than good.

We are skeptical of taking a prescription given to us by a person in the medical field yet we go out and purchase supplements because so and so on a message board says we should take it????

I respect Doc Graveline and since he has gone through what many of us have felt from taking a statin I do feel what he says is probably the closest to anything that "might" help us to recover.

Sorry for rambling and I hope I have no offended anyone as that was not my intetion.

[Darrell]

I take Q10 because it gave me a real boost when I needed one. I don't have a strong reason to continue other than the suspicion that perhaps I was low even before taking statins and am thus quite possibly still low now. If they doubled the price, I'd cut back or stop.

Carnitine is a different story: it works for my leg muscle problem and the problem comes right back in a matter of hours if I stop taking it. If they doubled the price, I'd pay it. If they raised it tenfold, I'd pay it. I'm contemplating paying the higher price for Propionyl-L-Carnitine from Sigma Tau because Sigma Tau makes prescription Carnitor so the quality is probably very good.

Everything else is optional to me. I take it if it's convenient. If I run out for awhile I don't worry about it. If I get tired of it, I quit for awhile. My trend is to take less and less. The baby aspirin is the only thing that leaves me feeling a little irresponsible when I skip it. Everything else is questionable from the "safe and effective" perspective that catspajamas raised.

[Brian C.]

I believe that ALL supplementary Q-10 used to come from the Japanese company that bought the Merck process. Don't know if this is still the case nowadays.

Brian.

[Ray Holder]

I have encountered this problem with Q10, but fortunately was recommended a reputable supplier 5 years ago, by Dr Peter Langsjoen. I am sure that there other good quality brands, or people would not get good results from taking Q10.

The problem is that it appears that once the drug company had decided not to take up Q10 production, it has been made to appear as "something from the health food shop" and dismissed from proper procedures, it costs a lot of money to submit a substance for official approval, and without a large manufacturing organisation to back it, an importer is unikely to want to risk capital putting someone else's product through the system.

I use Pharma Nord (Bio Enzyme) Q10 and it works very well for me, however, as I am so dependant on it to keep my heart working, if I forget to take one of my 3 doses in the day, I get bad angina. I have tried other brands which appeared to be of good quality, but I get angina when taking my full dosage of them, so quality or quantity must be suspect.

I read an article on Q10 quality, I can't remember where, but it had tested several brands of Q10 and found large variations in the amount in each capsule, I think it was from about 150% to 8% of the stated content, so don't be surprised if you get some which don't work.

Until Q10 gets official recognition and is put on a proper footing, this will continue. If this occurs, the price will probably skyocket to cover the extra costs involved, it's a no-win situation. I read an eastern company's advert, and while I think they use Japanese Q10, they were trying to make it more readily absorbed in the body, and the individual maker's formulation can add different substances, mine have added vitamin E.

Ray

[Brian C.]

Ray, I take the Bio-Nord preparation following your posted recommendation. My wife is taking the much cheaper Holland & Barrett capsulesthat I used to take. Have you any experience of these (i.e. were these some you took that resulted in increased angina?)
I have taken to supplementing my twice a day ingestion of the Bio-Nords with a couple of the Holland&Barretts at lunchtime with a little Red Palm Oil which is rich in the various VitE types, also I believe it too contains natural Q10.
Can't say I have detected any differences in angina frequency (always only with effort) or energy level whether taking 180mg of the H&B, 200mg of the Bio-Nord or 200mg Bio-Nord + 60mg H&B + palm oil.

Warm regards

Brian.

[adec]

Here's just another example of a picture speaking a thousand words. It's text from the Canadian New England Journal of Medicine that for some unforseen reason did not find its way into the American copy.

[http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/4706/statinslx8.jpg]

Or how about this seventeen-year old Merck patent, which basically gave them the exclusive rights to co-administer Coenzyme Q-10 along with their statin drugs Mevacor and Zocor. And yet, to date no such formulation exists. And this is in light of their own findings about Co-Q10 reserves being greatly diminished in patients taking statin drugs, which has has great potential to cause subsequent myopathy. And therefore, an "effective amount of Coenzyme Q.sub.10 [is required] to counteract said myopathy."

[http://patft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=4933165.PN.&OS=PN/4933165&RS=PN/4933165]

[Ray Holder]

Merck obtained two patents at about the same time, I cannot find it on this computer, but I know I found both together on Google when I put in just one patent number.

The other one places Q10 in a separate pill within the same package as the statin.

But they did not bother to broadcast it to the wide world, I often wonder if it would be possible to make a criminal charge of something like "negligently causing actual bodily harm by failing to warn patients of the damage caused to the metabolism", but legal opinion would be needed, and, as for myself, I wouldn't be able to cope with the need to attend a court.

I have made these two patents known to NICE and the BMJ, but they have been ignored.

Ray

[Ray Holder]

Brian

I have not tried Holland and Barrett Q10, but I had their carnitine TABLETS when I started out first of all, and they were completely ineffective, I believe a tablet dissolves too long after being taken to be at the point in the digestive system where it can be absorbed.

The Q10 capsules which did not work for me were from 4 Your Health and Zipvit, but I have used them up when I felt I needed a little extra on top of my normal doses.

Did I post the website Nutriglow? which has the best prices I have found for Pharmanord products.

I doubt if you will get much benefit from any food source of Q10, one needs to take pounds of meat, or similar quantities of peanuts to get enough naturally, plainly impossible. Most of our needs are made within the body before statins destroy the process.

Ray

[Brian C.]

Thank you for the heads-up re Nutriglow Ray, I have been buying my Pharma-Nord Q10 from Vitamin UK at £34.95 for 60 x 100mg. I will get 150 x 100mg from Nutriglow in future.
Yes, it does bother me how inefficient it is to ingest by means of tablet. Which L-Carnetine source have you settled upon (sorry if you have mentioned this already in another posting), Bio-Nord again?

I assume Merck et al suppress information about Q10 depletion to maintain sales of heart-failure medication!

Brian.