Forget the side affects for one minute ?

[Paul02]

Hello
Paul (44yrs) here from London,I have been on lipid lowering medication as long as I can remember,been on most of the statins and am now on Crestor. By the way I think some of my problems MAY be statin related,but I have FH and some narrowed arteries.
Now two questions,
Q 1 ,
If for one moment you leave aside the downside of statins do you think that the supposed scans of arteries before and after statin use for a long period,that actually show that the arteries are now wider than before the statins, are true ?
Q 2 ,
How long after stopping a statin before the cholesterol shoots up again to the level before the statin was started.
Thanks Paul

[Brian C.]

Hello Paul. I'm 62yrs and have been on statins for 17 years or so. Currently I am on Lipitor 80mg and have been for nearly 8 years. I too have FH and have had an occluded LAD coronary artery for over 20 years, angioplasty having failed.

The only reduction in atheroma was detected by Bi-doppler scans following courses of intravenous chelation therapy to remove the calcium deposits in the plaque. This was in 1994 and 1998. An angiogram in 2000 revealed slight deterioration in spite of the long-term use of statins and cholestyramine resin.

Since finding this forum and reading books by Drs Graveline, Ravnskov and Kendrick I have been in discussion with both my GP (who is also on Lipitor) and my endocrinologist in London, who administered my chelation therapy, regarding reducing or eliminating the statin. I will be seeing my endocrinologist this Tuesday to discuss strategy. He is very sympathetic and my GP is supportive and "in the loop" I am happy to say.
So I may soon be able to answer your second question.

Brian.

[catspajamas]

When I stopped zocor my chol levels went up twice as high as before I was put on statins...almost immediately...like 2-3 mos....Within a year of stopping statins my levels came down to just a little higher than normal ranges without taking anything but Niacin and some fish oil...So, go figure that one...I probably shouldn't of been on statins in the first place..I have had arterial, venus, caratid dopplers and there is no evidence of plaque anywhere...My bl test showed no inflammation...I often wondered why physicians don't do dopplers first before they hand out the statins...and why don't they stress diet and exercise more...(they don't know much about diet either)....[size=18][/size][color=darkblue][/color]

[sos_group_owner]

Hi Cats Pajamas,

Re: and why don't they stress diet and exercise more... (they don't know much about diet either)...

That's for sure. The low fat - low cholesterol diet is anything BUT healthy... teaches us to eat high carb, hence the high triglycerides that most have. Most times if a food item states it's no fat or low fat, it's loaded with sugar. They also tell us to avoid saturated fat, which actually causes low (good) HDL cholesterol levels. Good sources of saturated fat are butter and virgin coconut oil, especially good when used together.

When you look at the whole picture, our doctors tell us to do the exact opposite of 'what is healthy'. The food industry in right there to supply the never ending line of high carb, no fat/low fat products. The Dr's are right there to supply us with drugs when our numbers get all out of whack.

The ultimate benefit for everyone except "us".

Fran

[Paul02]

Thanks for the replies, and Brian it would be interesting to hear your findings after Tuesday.
I am in a bit of a dilemma. I want to try a period of time without statins but because of the FH (which apparantly caused my fathers heart disease and early death from a heart attack at 33yrs old) I am not certain that the statins may be the reason I am not dead myself yet.I am 44.
If I didn't have the FH producing this excessive amount of cholesterol then I would just come off the statins and see if I feel any better.
Surely the killer in my case are the fatty deposits lining the arteries so if I come completely off the statins,will I not increase the rate these arteries shut down ? I was thinking a reduced statin dose and some of the other reccomendations (Q10, etc) ?
Advice needed please
Thanks Paul

[Brian C.]

Paul, my reading indicates that high LDL level [i]per se[/i] is not the cause of early mortality for those of us (and our dads, mine died at 49) with FH since many (around 40% I believe) of FH "sufferers" do not develop CHD. It seems to make us more sensitive to epithelial damage. I guess we get some kind of "over-enthusiastic" response to the inflammation but if we avoid damage in the first place (not smoking, low stress lives, low sugar and trans-fat intake etc) a high serum cholestrol level can actually be protective (I went 35 years with no illness at all until circumstances put me under acute stress).
Anyway, I shall be discussing this hypothesis with my good doctor shortly and will report back.
Feel free to PM me if you want to chat.

Brian.

[Paul02]

Thanks again Brian, I will take you up on that and probably pm you in the next few days.
I seem to be suffering with several unexplained medical problems and would like to see if stopping the statins for a while improved or changed my symptoms.
Cheers Paul

[sos_group_owner]

Hi Paul & Brian,

You'll probably discover that the PM function is disabled on this forum.

Brian, your description of FH not developing CHD and more to do with inflammation is 'right on'.

Paul, if you decide to stop taking statins... Statins are a potent anti-inflammatory and stopping abruptly can put you at risk.
Taper off over 3 weeks...
Cut pills in 1/2
wk 1: take that 1/2 pill every day
wk 2: take that 1/2 pill every other day
wk 3: take that 1/2 pill every 3rd day

http://www.spacedoc.net/stopping_statins.html

At the same time, start taking statin alternatives...

Buffered Aspirin - 81 mg (contains beneficial magnesium)
CoQ10 - 100 to 150 mg (gelcaps - NOT powdered) with some Vit E
* Folic Acid - 400-800 mcg
* B6 - 80-100mg
* B12 - 200-250mcg
* (all 3 of these B Vitamins control Homocysteine)
Omega 3 (Fish Oil or Cod Liver Oil) - There is no upper limit

Dr Graveline's Statin Alternatives reduce and prevent inflammation, are anti-oxidants, reduce platelet stickiness, control (toxic) homocysteine and have the same anti-inflammatory affect as 20 mg's of Lipitor, without side effects.

http://www.spacedoc.net/statin_alternatives.htm

My recommendation (as aspirin aggravates tinnitus) If you are "aspirin sensitive", grape seed extract (GSE) is a good alternative (reduces platelet stickiness/prevents blood clots).

Fran

[Brian C.]

Right. At our meeting today we agreed on a strategy that involves slowly reducing the Lipitor (10mg/week) while taking Niaspan (I have never been on niacin before) and having weekly chelation sessions for the next month. We will then review 2nd week in March. This is a protocol that is "professionally acceptable" (my endocrinologist is already a bit "out there" with his colleagues since he never fully swallowed the cholestrol hypothesis and runs a chelation clinic for decalcifying plaque). Apparently 25 factors/markers have been identified so far in the aetiology of atherosclerosis/CHD!

I am muddying the water a bit for the docs since I am taking Dr Graveline's suggested supplements - along with others

Paul, may I recommend you read Dr Kendrick's new book mentioned by Ray Holder a few days back. It has only just been published and is as up-to-date as can be. I was reading the section on FH on the Tube today. Very interesting to us "sufferers" - and reassuring too

Brian.

[Brian C.]

BTW Paul, you can reach me at : brian<underline>clark<at>ntlworld<dot>com

Is this OK Fran?

Brian.

[Paul02]

Hello Brian
Glad it went ok today.Yes i will try to get my hands on the book you mentioned.
This chelation therapy ,is it mainstream or accepted by the medical fraturnity. I remember a few years back it was looked at like "snake oil" .
Have things come full circle ?
By chance I had to go to the lipid clinic at a big london hospital today and told the consultant of my recent findings here and elsewhere .
To my surprise he was quite accepting of my views and said the Q10 seems like a good idea (he said he had patients who said they had good results,but no proof) and we agreed that I would stop the ezetimbe for a month or how ever long I want and see if I felt any better and depending on what happens then try stopping the statin instead.
He agreed that the anti-inflammatory action of the statin was very important BUT also said that as I have FH I need something to lower the cholesterol to stop the arteries getting any more furred up.
Also he is testing my homocystene level and told me that last time he tested me I was in the high numbers for Lipoprotien A.
So all in all it went quite well and I will start the Co-Q10 as soon as I buy some and get that book and see how I go on no Ezetimbe and possibly reduce the statin next.
Thanks for yours and everyones help on here.
Paul

[sos_group_owner]

Hi Brian,

You can also update your 'Profile' so others can email you directly without displaying your addy. Select Profile, page down to Preferences and select the 'Yes' box next to 'Always show my e-mail address'.

An email button will then appear to the right of 'Profile' & 'PM' (not active) on each post you reply to.

Fran

[sos_group_owner]

Hi Paul,

It's good your doctor is willing to work with you. Most of us just run into a brick wall and have to go it alone. One thing about 'Ezetimbe'... it just lowers cholesterol... BUT doesn't provide anti-inflammatory benefit (as statins do). By far, homocysteine, Lp (a), hs-CRP and triglycerides are the markers that do the most damage (when elevated) - 'oxidized LDL'.

The problem is not elevated LDL cholesterol, it's when LDL becomes "oxidized".

Excerpt from an article by Dr Malcolm Kendrick: LDL (Oxidised LDL)

" This is a complex pathway. When platelets start to stick together, they release free radicals. "Free radicals" oxidise LDL. Oxidised LDL is a powerful blood clotting factor. LDL is also incorporated into the blood clot as it forms, and provides a `lipid' surface (along with VLDL) for the construction of fibrin. Fibrin is the hugely strong protein strand that binds a clot together and makes it `tough.' "

"Things that create "free radicals" and oxidized LDL... Smoking, high blood sugar levels (diabetes), stress... Risk factors that damage the "endothelium" include elevated levels of homocysteine, blood sugar, insulin, cortisol (stress hormones), triglycerides, smoking and deficiency in some vitamins, such as C and the B's."

When you get a chance, read the complete article titled, "Is Heart Disease All Due to Blood Clots?"
[http://www.thincs.org/Malcolm.htm#clots]

Fran

[Brian C.]

Thanks Fran, I'm a great one for missing the obvious!

Perhaps we ought to have a "1 in 500 Club" Forum for folks like Paul & me ...


Brian.

[Brian C.]

Paul, chelation therapy is yet to go mainstream and it is doubtful that your GP would refer you for such treatment under the NHS (although nothing lost by asking!). My endocrinologist and his services are paid for out of my own pocket but I and my wife put health at high priority in our budgeting (she had her breast cancer surgery performed privately within a week of the confirmed diagnosis). We believe the Number 1 factor in achieving and maintaining health is Taking Control!

Brian.

[Darrell]

Amen to "taking control"! Many of us here would be in much worse shape today if we hadn't taken control, and many of us wish we had taken control a lot sooner.

[poohhel]

[quote="sos_group_owner"]
That's for sure. The low fat - low cholesterol diet is anything BUT healthy... teaches us to eat high carb, hence the high triglycerides that most have. Most times if a food item states it's no fat or low fat, it's loaded with sugar. They also tell us to avoid saturated fat, which actually causes low (good) HDL cholesterol levels. Good sources of saturated fat are butter and virgin coconut oil, especially good when used together.
Fran[/quote]

Fran: I was just going back and re-reading past posts in an effort to help me with my quest for diet recommendations when I came across this post of yours...

I am looking for something to help in lowering my LDL-C and raise my HDL, my doctor had recommended Zetia and I do not want to do that, I was then encouraged to look at a low-fat/low-cholesterol diet (much like a vegetarian). But you mention in the above quoted post that this is not the way to go ... Could you elaborate and/or provide other suggestions?

[sos_group_owner]

Re: I am looking for something to help in lowering my LDL-C and raise my HDL, my doctor had recommended Zetia and I do not want to do that, I was then encouraged to look at a low-fat/low-cholesterol diet (much like a vegetarian). But you mention in the above quoted post that this is not the way to go ... Could you elaborate and/or provide other suggestions?

Hi 'poohhel',

Two things raise HDL... exercise and healthy saturated fats (virgin coconut oil & butter). Avoid (like the plague) any foods that contain hydrogenated or partially hydrogenated oils. Generally, avoid processed foods. Eat protein from all sources (including eggs), fresh vegetables and fruits. Limit your carbohydrate intake, especially from the white foods: sugar, flour, potato, bread, rice. Low carb helps to control triglycerides.

The amount of LDL is not as important as when LDL becomes oxidized (also creating "free radicals") from the following:

* Smoking
* high blood sugar levels (diabetes)
* stress
Risk factors that damage the "endothelium" include elevated levels of :
* homocysteine
* blood sugar
* insulin
* cortisol (stress hormones)
* triglycerides
* smoking
* deficiency in some vitamins, such as C and the B's

Source:
When you get a chance, read the complete article titled, "Is Heart Disease All Due to Blood Clots?" by Dr Malcolm Kendrick
*http://www.thincs.org/Malcolm.htm#clots

I'll repeat, the low fat low cholesterol diet is not healthy.

Excellent article about "fats"... "The Skinny on Fats" by Mary Enig, PhD:
*http://www.westonaprice.org/knowyourfats/skinny.html

Fran