The Third Kidney

[cjbrooksjc]

In my last post I meant to include this question: Does the Statin Toxin (inhibitor) that effects us remain in the body after we stop the medication and so require some sort of purge? Does sweating help remove this toxin. Do the kidneys help remove it? The process of perspiration is often refered to as the Third Kidney, and I wonder if steam baths, or Saunas might no prove helpful.
Brooks

[sos_group_owner]

Re: Does the Statin Toxin (inhibitor) that effects us remain in the body after we stop the medication and so require some sort of purge?

Hi Brooks,

Statins inhibit the enzyme HMG-CoA reductase. According to Dr Paul Phillips website (he specializes in diagnosing statin adverse effects), "Many of the myopathic patients had felt markedly improved when they stopped their statin therapy for two weeks before entry into the trial." Later in his article Dr Phillips tests CK and waits again for 6 weeks to retest CK. Very informative article at this link:
[http://www.impostertrial.com/physician.htm#How%20to%20evaluate%20Patients%20with%20Muscle%20Symptoms%20on%20Statins]

As far as how long statins stay in the body... some say 2 weeks... I think it's more "what adverse effects statins caused to our body". When muscles are damaged by statins (caused by CoQ10 depletion) one of the worst things one can do is exercise already damaged muscles. It would be like running 5 miles on a sprained ankle.

If statin muscle damage has progressed to rhabdomyolysis (this condition can occur very quickly in some), exercise is the last thing anyone should attempt. This is a very detailed description of Rhabdomyolysis:

"Rhabdomyolysis occurs when an iron-containing pigment found in the skeletal muscle called myoglobin enters the bloodstream. The skeletal muscle releases myoglobin into the bloodstream after the muscle suffers damage. The kidneys attempt to filter the myoglobin out of the bloodstream, but the myoglobin can occlude the structures within the kidney, resulting in damage such as acute tubular necrosis or kidney failure. The myoglobin then may break down into additional toxic compounds, which can cause further kidney damage and failure. In addition, the dead (necrotic) skeletal muscle can cause large shifts in fluid from the bloodstream into the muscle, which reduces the relative fluid volume of the body and can lead to shock and reduced blood flow to the kidneys."
[http://www.rhabdomyolysis.org/rhabdomyolysis.html]

I hope this info helps address your questions.

Fran

[cjbrooksjc]

Fran: Thank you for your input. To answer the implied ? at the end of your post - yes, this helps me understand better what has happened to me, but to put it in standard TEXAS vernacular: It skairt the pee-waddin' out of me! I still have stabbing pain in my forearms, hips, and legs after any exertion and was hoping, by now, to have recovered from these Statin-induced insults (I stopped Statin regimen August '06). I continue to be optimistic however and will continue the recommended treatment for as long as it takes. Thanks for your involvement in this medical debacle.

[sos_group_owner]

Hi Brooks,

Which supplements are you taking? And doses?
* CoQ10 - gelcaps (not powdered) containing some Vit E or taken with Vit E
* L-Carnitine or Acetyl L-Carnitine
* Alpha Lipoic Acid

Fran

[cjbrooksjc]

Fran: I am currently taking daily:

500 mg acetly L-C
500 mg plain L-C
(because I couldn't be sure which one to take)
750 mg CoQ10
350 mg Cinnamon
800 units Vit E
2000 mg Vit C

also a broad spectrum B, pycnogenol(sp?), 1000mg Omega 3 fish oil, 500 mg magnesium, plus a few others

... I use the dosage in a daily weight lifting regimen: I lift them three times in each hand before putting them in my mouth.

Why gel caps for CoQ10? I HAD been taking ToCoQ10 in gel cap form, but ordered the straight CoQ10 accidentally and in powdered capsules.

Regards,
Brooks

[Biologist]

cjbrooksjc,

Your situation may be fairly similar to mine and my supplement regime is similar to yours while I also now take Alpha Lipoic Acid, and have been taking two or three times as much Omega-3 Oil and Vitamin C as you do. Starting today I will upping my carnitine of both types.

What is that "pycnogenol(sp?)" stuff? Do you recommend it?

You wrote the following:

"I still have stabbing pain in my forearms, hips,
and legs after any exertion..."
--cjbrooksjc

I have stabbing pain in my left shoulder and to a lesser degree in my left forearm and hand -- but here's the thing: this is the case whether there is any exertion or not. And there are times where there is absolutely no pain at all. I have reached the conclusion that it is neuropathy-based rather than "muscle-based." Perhaps yours is too.

In case you have not seen this post of mine on the "Neuropathy / Acetyl L- Carnitine Study," take a look:

http://www.spacedoc.net/board/viewtopic.php?p=3023#3023

While you're in the neighborhood (i.e., the Neuropathy and Statins Subforum"), check out this post by Tex62.

http://www.spacedoc.net/board/viewtopic ... e5954#3045

I thought it was inspiring. I have been taking near the amounts of CoQ10 as Dr. Graveline recommended for her husband and it was good to get some confirmation that it may be a good idea.

BTW, I recently read that damaged mitochondria can take about 6 months to start to repair. I do not know if there is anything to that idea, but one of my "research projects" over the next few weeks will be to see if there is any data/studies available regarding mitochondria rejuvination from C0Q10 depletion.

Biologist

[cjbrooksjc]

Biologist: I may increase the Omega and Vit C as I have read many posts on this forum that suggest it.
As for the Pycnogenol element - it's a derivitive of French pine trees that is full of flavonoids which support the body's ability to neutralize free radicals; I've been taking it for years - long before Statins. (the SP? is just my way of saying I've no spell checker and am not sure of the spelling; this spelling is right though).
I should have been clearer about the stabbing pains: they are WORSENED by exertion, and they are in my upper leg, calf, forearm (especially), and hip area. I also have periods of NO pain and can still have mild to moderate pain at other times without ANY exertion; sometimes if I sit in one position for an extended period I will notice an increase when I change position.
Bieng that I am just now 6 months off the Statins, it's actually good to hear that damaged cells may take months to recover (which baffles me a bit knowing cells replicate at a much more frequent rate), and I also know that a recovery process alone can be painful; so, maybe... In any case I'll be sure to read your recommendations when I finish this response.

Regards,
Brooks

[cjbrooksjc]

Biologist: Thank you. I read the suggested segments included in your last reply and am absolutely going to increae my dosages of L-Carnitine and CoQ10. Also Fran recommended gel caps, not powdered capsules for CoQ10 - do you know why?

Brooks

[Biologist]

cjbrooksjc,

I do not know why about powder vs. gel caps, but I can believe it. All I have ever seen in stores are the gel caps. The particular molecule may be more stable in that "lipid-like" environment.

I don't really know much about the "origin of pain." Your issues may be more muscle-oriented than mine, but the pain aspect of it all is still nerve-based in the end. Nerves chemically and electrically "report" the insult of the muscle -- but, of course, they also report insults to themselves too. It may be a combination of these two factors for a lot of us -- in differing ratios?

The comment about the repair times of mitochondria was from a post I read in a thread in "Healthboard.com" last night about cholesterol and statin damage. A guy asserted six months for mitochondria, but he may or may not have based that on much. I will be looking for info on that issue though. I know that nerve cells are much slower to divide than others, but that does not mean that they do not repair or that their mitochondria do not divide -- and it is impaired mitochondria that I suspect may be responsible for a lot of statin problems. A problem is that their own DNA is not well protected (and particularly in the absence of CoQ10) in these organelles and there could be replication errors passed along. Here are a few "factoids" for you: As we get older mitochondria tend to divide (i.e., multiply) less inside the cells, and generally become less efficient. Athletes have more mitochondria in their muscle cells -- as responding to the performance demand. Cells division is distinct from mitochondria division inside the cells.

BTW, at the Healthboard forum, it appears that everyone is still sold on the Cholesterol Myth, so a lot of what they discuss is fundamentally flawed. There is one guy there "NHone, Senior Veteran" who knows what is up, but he is a lone voice and often just ignored -- but he keeps on trying, I have to give him that! I thought about registering and helping him out. Maybe some other time. I spent an hour or so reading threads there for the first time. This will take you to one, if you are interested. I think this is the board that people here have reported getting kicked off of for speaking the truth. I gotta hunch some of the rest of us I would not last long there either...

[http://www.healthboards.com/boards/showthread.php?t=402086&page=2]

Biologist

[Biologist]

Turns out, that IS the thread about the "six months."

I might add though, I don't believe he is right about his assertion of there being no improvement possible with PN. In fact, I have posted findings on two studies here in the last few days which indicate otherwise.

Biologist

[cjbrooksjc]

Biologist: Thanks for the linx. I took a look. I have always said there were two things you couldn't have too much of: Love and Information, but I'm starting to get too much conflicting info, and I think I'll stick to this forum for a while until I can feel comfortable with the level of input I receive. This medication did something to my cognitive abilities, and I can't distill as well as I once could. There were rays of hope, long term, in some of the (Healthboards) posts I read though, and I'll cling to that for the time being. Thanks for your help.

Regards,
Brooks

[Biologist]

Rereading some of your posts, it sounds like you are making progress as per Bucho and Tex63 and a couple others as models for your likely future progress. The results of the magnesium shots you spoke of were impressive. Your joint problems possibly could be helped with glucosamine. It is something you could research sometime. I did that for about a year when I was getting some knee pain from running on an elliptical machine, but quit recently partly since I have done nothing physical since early November when I ran into big statin problems (I now walk about one mile per day). It is possible that stuff helped me when I was working out, and I have not had any pain since I started it, but it took about two months to have any effect. Of course, I was taking statins at that time too which may have started the issue in the first place -- it was never bad pain.

I am 49 and was taking 27 mgs. most of my six years of Zocor. I got the 80 mg tablets and broke them into three pieces. Good thing, actually I was only supposed to break them in half, but I was cheap. Cheap pays off every now and then, I guess. It was only when the pill changed to a big round thing that I started breaking them in half over the last six months or so, and that is what must have finally done it for me at 40 mgs. I had noticed a lack of energy for years and had been a bit nauseated in the mornings in more recent months and had tingling in my left foot and two fingers on my left hand. A little over a year ago I got an unexpected strain in my arm from weight lifting (likely a tendon). I was surprised how long it took for it to improve -- something like three months. I now see that as likely caused by statins and being slow to heal from statins, and the pain was similar to what I have now in that arm just in different places such as my shoulder. I believe the pain from both to be injured nerves. But it did eventually repair, so that is what I suspect is happening now. I also was noticing some mental confusion, or fog, mainly in the mornings -- and big time right before I had my big blow out. And frankly, while some of my symptoms like the extreme fatigue got better real soon, others didn't really start until a few days or weeks after I quit -- such as shoulder pain (after the numbness went away). I believe I had a good overload of statins in me that remained doing damage for a couple of weeks or so. I took CoQ10 much of the last few months prior to my "crash day" but had run out a couple of week prior to that day. That likely had something to do with things. BTW, I took the CoQ10 because I had read an article about it, not for countering statin damage which I knew nothing about at the time. I was just fortunate, I guess. In a way, it is good that I ran out because otherwise I would have kept on taking Zocor and get weakened more over time. Neurotransmitters are also impeded by statins which probably contributed to cognitive concerns and mood, beyond just the lack of CoQ10 which the brain uses a lot of. At the height of my acute problems, I was mildly depressed. That has largely faded over the weeks. It may just be taking your system a bit longer to recover for some reason. What I am most apprehensive about currently is ultimate energy level recovery from pre-statin days and the concern that I may have weakened my heart. Don't really care as long as it will get back in full force if I did. We'll see. Overall, my best guess is that both of us, and many others on this board, will get much better, but that we are looking at 9 months or a year to see it.

Biologist

[sos_group_owner]

Hi Brooks,

Sorry I took so long to respond. CoQ10 in gel form (in an oil or vitamin-E base) are more easily absorbed and metabolized. Dr Graveline discusses CoQ10 and the remaining statin alternatives in this article:
http://www.spacedoc.net/statin_alternatives.htm

Fran

[cjbrooksjc]

Biologist: I've been taking glucosamine/condroitin(sp?) suppliments for some time due to the joint pain. I would guess some of my pain is neurological as well, but, well this is all a crap shoot, right; just take the recommended pills and hope for the best? I was thinking today how my reactions started with a heaviness in the legs (like they weighed 100lbs each), and how I began to catch so many colds that put me on my back, and I wonder how many people heading out to lunch today are sniffling and wondering why THEIR legs feel so heavy... it's a shame and a sham. Thanks for your reply.

Fran: I will order the gel caps next time. Also, after reading other posts and replies from other members, I ordered the Alpha Lipoic Acid which I can get combined with L-carnitine from my on-line supplier. I appreciate your involvement and your help. Looks like you've attained veteran status here.. many thanks indeed.

Regards,
Brooks

[Ray Holder]

Hi
Q10 is not soluble in water, and is absorbed to a far greater extent when with oil or fat. The gelcap version has the Q10 in an oil base and thus wastes very little

Ray

[sos_group_owner]

Hi Brooks,

Re: glucosamine/condroitin - My husband also takes a liquid with "glucosamine/chondroitin" for his knees and joints. All of his inflammatory markers are extremely low... hs-C Reactive Protein, Lipoprotein (a), etc. So although it's for the knees and joints, I feel it also provides some cardio protection as well.

Fran

[Biologist]

cjbrooksjc,

Just wanted to make sure you saw the hyperlink found here in this post:

http://www.spacedoc.net/board/viewtopic.php?p=3097#3097

I am gambling that the Vitamin C hypothesis is correct and that is why I take several grams per day -- at least 5 or 6 grams (may work up to more later on). And it is partly for this reason, along with the knowledge of other supplements such as CoQ10, that I have previously said that the maximum upside potential for us is above average health in the future regardless of current statin damage.

Currently most people either do basically nothing correct for heart health (and possibly overall "body health") or they take statins. Both are wrong.

One might think that science and the media will surely eventually prevail over Big Pharma with the truth, but it sure has not happened in the last 40 years in the age of the "Cholesterol Myth." The myth is far more than mere gospel, it is money.

Linus Pauling lived into his ninties at a time when life expectancies were much less for his demographic.

On another note: The guy from that other board I cited in this thread, who was talking about an 80% maximum recovery rate from statins, pulled that statistic out of the air -- as he did for another statistic in another thread on another issue where he got busted when someone asked him to cite the study. He could not cite it. He means well, and is the only one there who knows the Cholesterol Myth is junk, but he should not be used as a good source for such statistics. He may be right in the end, but not just because he asserts it.

Biologist

[Biologist]

[http://tinyurl.com/5zdhj]

Biologist

[adec]

[quote="Biologist"]http://tinyurl.com/5zdhj

Biologist[/quote]

Not only do we need more vitamin C than previously thought for optimal cardiovascular and immunological health, but vitamin D for optimal bone health as well (as much as 2-5000IU daily.) So inexpensive and widely available, and yet so amazingly effective. There's an almost unquestionable science behind the use of both, unlike current statin ideology.

And I believe osteoporosis is a far greater threat to women than hypercholesterolemia could ever be. I hope we don't forget the other side of the equation, in placing all of our eggs in the wrong basket.

[http://www.insinc.com/onlinetv/directms13oct2005/softvnetplayer.htm]

By the way, Chris Gupta's articles are what initially introduced me to Dr. Graveline's story, which then led me to this site. And the rest is history. I probably cannot thank either of them enough.

[tex62]

Dr. Graveline also says that we should add Vitamin C to our list of supplements, but doesn’t recommend a specific dosage. He says,
“Now we must add one more dietary factor to our growing list of those food items having special focus on atherosclerosis. To our vitamins B6, B12 and folic acid now must be added vitamin C.” Full article
http://www.spacedoc.net/lipoprotein_a_cholesterol.html