Permanent Muscle Damage

[Biologist]

David, I think the NIH link is very encouraging particularly since they were working with people who had normal ATP production. Putting extra gas in the tank does not make a car start more easily or go faster, but putting gas in an empty tank does. Some of our cells have "empty tanks," the normal people's cells already have what they need.

I do not like the idea of these supplements not being sublingual as the experiment used. The stomach is a "chemical pressure cooker" that ATP would be hard pressed to survive, it seems to me. It must be some kind of expensive process to make it in a truly sublingual form as used in the trial.

Anyway, I hope you have good results to report. I'll be buying a bunch if you do. My energy level has been pretty lack luster for the last couple of few weeks compared to several months ago despite my D-ribose supplementation and all the rest. That bums me out a bit, even knowing of the ups and downs that are the hallmark of our affliction. I have no good explanation for the change. It reminds me of how complicated this all is: there is so much damage to so many different systems it can be like adding gas to an empty tank only to rule it out as the problem when the car still fails to start -- but actually it did get you a lot closer, you just didn't know it because of an unknown intermittent electrical problem showing up at an inopportune time...

Biologist

[Biologist]

Correction.

I wrote:

"I do not like the idea of these supplements not
being sublingual as the experiment used."

Here is a line from the abstract:

"To improve absorption characteristics, the
ATP was enterically coated. Total blood ATP
(whole blood and plasma ATP) concentrations..."

So I should have commented on the lack of the enterical coating (such that they will disolve in the small intestines with an alkaline environment as opposed to in the stomach with its acid environment) on the supplements rather than their not being sublingual.

The "absorption characteristics" cited no doubt referres to an increased asorption of the INTACT ATP molecule.

Also, I should have noted the "revelation" that we are apparently able to detect ATP in the blood or plasma. Good to know.

Biologist

[David Staup]

Biologist,

do you think the sublingual would be better?

do you think it would be worth contacting the authors of the paper to see if their form would be available to us for a trial?

do you thinl a supository form would work?

David

[David Staup]

Biologist,

I didnot notice that the study was actually done in dallas at the Cooper center. A place I have some experience with as I have done work there when I worked in medical imaging and could probably contact the authors directly. I will attempt that next week.

this just gets better and better

David

[Biologist]

David,

Talking to the authors sounds promising to me. I look forward to seeing what you find out. They may have a real experiment on their hands now! And yes, any of the methods of administration you mentioned would be better for the ATP molecule, to my knowledge.

Biologist

[Biologist]

Hey, Brooks. I am probably responsible for the confusion with CYP3A4 from a previous post of mine. Here is a good source of info on it. BTW, note that doxycycline does not show up on their list of selected inducers, inhibitors and substrates of CYP3A4.

I may get around to figuring out how to add it to their list of inhibitors and substrates !

It sure as hell is.

Biologist

[Biologist]

Ooops.

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CYP3A4

Biologist

[David Staup]

Biologist,

This form is sublingual:

*http://www.healthdesigns.com/douglas-labs/atp-20.html?gdftrk=gdfV2379_a_7c448_a_7c1361_a_7cDL_d_83029_d_60X#full

do you want to try this one while I try the other?

David

[Biologist]

Yep, I'll order a couple of bottles this afternoon or over the weekend.

Biologist

[cjbrooksjc]

Biologist:

Here is an interesting site:
**http://chinese-school.netfirms.com/generic-drugs-zocor.html

And here is an excerpt from the site:
The risk of myopathy is increased by high levels of HMG-CoA reductase inhibitory activity in plasma. Potent inhibitors of CYP3A4 can raise the plasma levels of HMG-CoA reductase inhibitory activity and increase the risk of myopathy.

In the second CYP3A4 reference in that sentence I should have written Mevalonate pathway. in any case, this site is unfettered and interesting to peruse.

Brooks

[cjbrooksjc]

B: I had never looked at the CYP3A4 ligands subtext before - pretty scary stuff even without your addition. BTW - I re-read my last response to your CYP3A4 query and didn't understand it...did you?

Best,

Brooks

[Biologist]

Brooks,

Thanks for the email. I will read up prior to my appointment.

Biologist
______

BTW, it's mostly all Greek to me, err, make that Latin!

[Biologist]

Hi, Brooks,

I'm just getting a chance to revisit this thread. If you still remember writing it, I thought your overall explanation to "damaged" was excellent. And citing that particular text section was helpful too as I will comment on below. I learned from it.

Leaving out all references in your original postings to CYP3A4 would have been the most correct, and yes, substituting "Mevalonate Pathway" would have been correct in that sentence you mentioned right above in this thread. Here's more on how the CYP3A4 system (and other associated stuff) works from what I understand about it:

Normally, only about 5% of the active ingredient in a statin dose/pill like Zocor or Lipitor (other statins may vary) ever hits your blood stream intact. The majority is removed (i.e., metabolized) by the CYP3A4 enzymatic detox system in the liver (and also by certain cells in the gut immediately upon absorption by this same biochemical process as the liver cells use). Most everything we eat, after being absorbed from the gut, goes directly to the liver via its own dedicated short major vessel connecting the two -- rather than into more typical blood vessels that are part of general systemic circulation. (However, just to complicated things, some molecules of the food we eat ARE absorbed directly into general circulation, such as sugars, alcohol and many small molecules. And then some molecules, such as the fats we eat and also cholesterol we eat, I believe, are actually absorbed from the gut into the lymphatic system -- largely comprised of white blood cells, not red -- and take a longer route through that circulatory system to eventually get dumped into general systemic circulation where the lymphatic system connects with the general circulation system near the heart). Fun, huh...

However, it the CYP3A4 system is inhibited from working in liver and gut cells, then much more than 5% of the statin slips by intact into the blood of the general circulation after exiting the liver. And that is where major problems occure!! (Grapefruit juice has a chemical that inhibits this system too, and most of us have heard of that particular "drug interaction.") This huge amount of active statin in the general circulation REALLY stops the Mevalonate pathway in its tracks bigtime. Everywhere. Very little cholesterol and CoQ10 and other stuff is able to be made in our cells -- and primarily in our liver cells for export throughout the body. Production is all blocked by the huge amount of active statin! At that point Major Damage then instantly occurs to cells, tissues and organs everywhere in the body, rather than just by the slow deterioration common to chronic statinization (as we all know very well).

Your cited text mentioned Vitamin E being carted around by LDL. It is my understanding that it partly rides on the OUTSIDE of the LDL carrier complex rather than just inside with the cholesterol and fatty acids, and this is what gives LDL some of its antioxidant qualities. Vitamin E is a mean free radical buster.

Biologist

[damaged]

Posted by Brooks
Several studies show that statins reduce circulating levels of CoQ10, but it remains unclear whether this represents a true CoQ10 deï¬Â

[Biologist]

David,

As I mentioned to you via email a while back, my ATP appeared to be old as it had a stale taste to it. So it was not a good test. I was not able to detect anything for sure. Also, the directions said that it could be chewed or done sublingually, which sounded suspicious to me. If I were to give the concept a good test in the future, I would try this stuff here. Pretty expensive though. I noticed it while reordering some basic stuff just now:

*http://www.iherb.com/Life-Extension-PEAK-ATP-with-GlycoCarn-60-Tablets/10926?at=0

It is enteric coated. Life-Extension is less likely than most to market bogus stuff in my opinion (while I don't know for sure). It is possible that their website would have some studies on it.

Give an update when you get a chance on how your experience with ATP supplementation may be working for you.

_____

damaged, regarding CoQ10 you wrote:

"I'm sometimes not sure if the writer is referring
to what's happening while a person is still taking
the statin...or if these things are happening
because of a mutation and will continue to happen."

Good question. I believe the thinking here is that CoQ10 production may be damaged on a long-term basis after statins or that as some of the mitochondria are now damaged they require more than can be produced.

My guess is that if people on this forum were taking CoQ10 while they were taking statins, most would be much less injuried now -- and might still be taking statins.

Biologist

[David Staup]

Biologist,

breifly: right now I'm a bit pressed...my wife is in intensive care 1.5 hrs away and I'm commuting every day...we have been seperated and in the divorce process so I,m slowly going down hill.

I'll give a breif account of the ATP and come back with links when I have time.

I am now taking 225 mg enteric coated ATP 2X per day AND 250 sublingual ATP tn 4 doses of 62 thru the day. rhe sublingual are from the last of the original that I started on which are no longer available.

I have noted a big reduction in muscle and joint problems while on the sublingual. with all the drivind, walking, and standing in the last 4 days I,m holding up pretty well... dehydration minimal with normal liquid intake.

neuropothy a bit worse and cognative and memory problems see un affected as they are worsenning with all the current stress

hopefully my current situation will get better in the next few days and I can recover enough to give a better acount.

please pray for Maud Staup for a full recovery

David

[cjbrooksjc]

Biologist: Your Oct, 5 entry re: CYP3A4. I have not kept current on the forum (lots of stuff going on), but having recently read your Oct 5 post in this thread. I appreciate and understand, perhaps for the first time, the real workings of the CYP3A4 enzyme. Thanks.

Brooks

[Biologist]

"please pray for Maud Staup for a full recovery"

You got it, David.

Biologist

[Biologist]

Brooks,

Let's hyperlink your other thread/post from today to this thread. Interesting numbers. Insightful for me in pondering what my effective toxic burden was of Zocor for a few days in a row three years ago. I can sure still feel it...

http://spacedoc.net/board/viewtopic.php?t=1634

Biologist

[cjbrooksjc]

Biologist: The number is gut wrenching - like finding you owe $15,000 to the IRS instead of $150; I kept staring at the number (640mg to 1,120mg). Thanks for linking the post.

Brooks