Off topic - Research news from NPR

[eers]

Thought this might be of interest:

*http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112248236

[David Staup]

Thats interesting

even more interesting for us:

"http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TCW-41185FD-8&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=993042154&_rerunOrigin=scholar.google
&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=cd503a3273cb72b9bb0c1d772f9faf4a

"http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15384945

"http://www.nature.com/gt/journal/v6/n12/full/3301090a.html


How are you holding up?

[eers]

Hi David,

Great links. I took Molecular Biology in college but barely stayed awake through the 8am class...now I'm learning it all over again...

This week was a bit rough. Monday evening - I tried to trim some hedges... lots of rest before and after, gatorade in between. It might have been 45 minutes of time outside but I really struggled the next two days. I tried D-Ribose yesterday as biologist recommended. Got some Gatorade and OJ and gave it a whirl twice - but I don't think my body was fooled - even woke up early this morning and had it again but felt really weak afterward. I'm better now - just stuck to my more usual regimen and no excercise and had a good day although feeling some cramps, numbness in my toes - I take it a bit too hard - these occasional days back.

Good news - I'll be up to 500mg CoQ10 today. Also staying on with Acetyl-L-Carnitine and Alpha Lipoic acid as you recommended. Also started on Cod Liver Oil (1000 x 2 tbspn/day), B vits. One positive outcome - I've had this red raised rash on my arm for a few weeks now, it seems it's finally starting to heal and isn't so visible anymore. I look back every now and then and notice these things now - how slow I seemed to heal from scratches, cuts the last few months. What was I thinking?

Just for laughs...my internist wants to test me for Lyme disease tomorrow...I would be shocked if this works out but there are some similarities in some symptoms.

[Biologist]

Hi, eers.

You write:

"I tried D-Ribose yesterday as biologist recommended.
Got some Gatorade and OJ and gave it a whirl twice -
but I don't think my body was fooled - even woke up
early this morning and had it again but felt really weak
afterward. I'm better now - just stuck to my more usual
regimen and no excercise and had a good day..."

Don't be so sure it did not work. From what you write, it may have. You were still in the time frame for efficacy at 48 hours, where you "had a good day" right afterwards (energy wise, with cramps and numbness being unrelated). Try drinking the orange juice 10 or 15 minutes before taking the D-Ribose. Or, take it with or after a meal.

BTW, Gatorade is great for its intended purpose -- recovery from high energy workouts with major heavy duty sweating where electrolytes are lost and the high fructose corn sugar (HFCS) is quickly burned off. But most statin damaged people are not (or not any longer) NFL football players doing full contact drills all afternoon in the Florida (Gator's) practice field.. That HFCS is bad news for us. Stick with the orange juice or try to find something without the HFCS, would be my recommendation.

Carnitine can be expected to work within an hour (or sooner) -- and wear off within four or five.

D-Ribose will NOT work immediately -- it takes several hours to even start to work. What you take today will not help you much today, but tomorrow and the next day. Both need to be taken regularly.

CoQ10 is even more "time delayed." Its major effect in *Energy Production* can take many days or weeks (or months for some) to reach real significance. It is somewhat similar to getting your Vitamin D levels up. It takes time to get blood levels up significantly due to absorption issues. And then, in addition, each individual CoQ10 molecule has to partially unravel to get into the inner membrane of the mitochondria where it does its work to produce energy. That takes a lot of time. The results are facilitated by this (required) high blood serum level of the molecule so that -- now -- each of the many trillions of mitochondria are all working as fast as they can to *slowly* escort each molecule in. Use to be that our mitochondria only *supplemented* their need for it with available serum CoQ10. But now the machinery required in many mitochondria for making their own CoQ10 in house has been wrecked (i.e, mutated). Now these damaged mitochondria thoroughly depend on the serum supplementation -- which is why our serum levels must be higher than for other people who are not statin damaged. Their levels tend to be much lower than ours need to be. The liver's export production, and a typical diet which includes some CoQ10, simply cannot supply enough in the serum now for our current supplementation needs.

CoQ10 also lowers blood pressure and that can happen within hours as a small increase in the serum works directly on the cells lining the blood vessels (i.e., the endothelium) and capularies (by slightly dialating them) and therefore it does not have to get deep within tissues to reach more distant cells where 100s of trillions of mitochondria are. (In the long run, CoQ10 probably also lowers blood pressure by its effect of significantly improving the strength of the heart.) CoQ10 also fortifies cell membranes and that take a little time too to reach them all -- after high serum levels are attained. But the real bottleneck is in getting into the inner membrane of all the mitochondria -- after it has reach the distant tissues, crossed the main cellular membrane, been transported within the cellular cytosol to the cells' hundreds of mitochondria, where it must be escorted across the outer membrane, and then unraveled to be slowly pulled into the inner membrane of each mitochondria and in sufficient number.

Biologist

[David Staup]

eers

these up and downs are common and not something you will figure out in a short period. the bad days can be very discouraging. I found it helpful to break tasks into several small efforts of 10-15 minutes seperated by an hour or so....I not less angst in your posts and that tells me you're comming to grips with the fact that there is no magic pill that will make this go away overnite...thats a good thing

Biologist,
I defer to your greater knowlege on the subject re the gatorade, I usually mix my own electrolyte solution sans the sugar. In my case, I suspect that every effort produces some level of Rhabdomyolysis and if I'm not replacing the electrolytes fairly regularly the muscle breakdown products begin to build up in my kidneys. I suspect anyone who experiences exercise intolorance may be seeing the same effect to some degree.. since starting the electrolyte regime I only rarely suffer from kidney pains and will pass dark and cloudy urine within 24 to 36 hours after moderate physical effort whereas before it would build up and pass much later in visable "clumps"...additionally since starting with the electrolytes my blood pressure has come down to normal as have my blood glucose levels.

My doctor actually said " you seem to have figured this out on your own and no longer need to see me regularly." of course he could have just been tired of my obstinance

Am I way off base here?

David

[Biologist]

David,

My attack on Gatorade would have been Much More Vicious if I had seen this website page first:

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gatoraid

This is unconscionable:

"The football team credited Gatorade with their first
Orange Bowl win over the Georgia Tech Yellow Jackets
in 1967, and the drink became an instant phenomenon.
The Yellow Jackets coach Bud Carson, when asked why
they lost, replied: "We didn’t have Gatorade. That made
the difference."

I started my extended college career as a declared mechanical engineering major at Georgia Tech!

(By that time, we probably had it ourselves though.)

They do not mention the Major Ingredient found in Gatorade on this page that I could see, which is High Fructose Corn Surup. With all the bad press for HFCS in recent years (mainly starting with Dr. Mercola, I believe), the page writer (no doubt the owners of the product) would have been happy to "deemphasis" that fact, But check the bottle. It's there either first or right after "water." (I know because on some of my long walks, I will stop and buy a bottle of it.) One problem with Wikipedia is the bias in the write ups for a company's or an industry's own products. The entry on "Statins" in Wikepedia use to say (in the very first paragraph!) that they reduce heart disease by 60%!! (While it is possible that it was in the text for either "Zocor" or "Lipitor" I cannot remember for sure.) I generally credit this website for "inspiring" that change. It must have gotten a bit too embarrassing on the Credibility Meter. Might be coincidence, but probably not. It came down only a few months ago at most (and is likely still in the entry's "history" stored by Wikipedia, I believe). I know because I checked again a few weeks ago as I was going to cite this absurdity in a recent post, but it had been removed after being there for years.

BTW, Wikipedia is pretty good on molecular biology concerns, in my opinion. I use it a lot.

Interesting on Rhabdomyolysis. That is one symptom I never got. I sure checked for it at every opportunity in the beginning. No discoloration. That is one of the few bullets I dodged. Most of the rest were right on target.

I think you have caught on unusually quickly. In one of my earlier posts, for instance, I was bad mouthing Vitamin C thinking that it was causing me problems from my newly increased dosages. Turns out it was just an artifact of of the "ups and downs" you cite.

Biologist

[eers]

That's funny about GT - I was there for a brief time too.

David,

You asked me earlier about kidney pains, urine color. I don't really have any of that (so far at least). I am thirsty a lot although I've increased my intake of liquids - I'm usually at least at 100oz of fluid per day now if not more.

At least for me - it seems my blurry vision has somewhat improved and that could have been due to the dehydration.

I did go to a GNC the other day to find an alternative to Gatorade, the clerk recommended E-lyte (not sold there). Check it out - I'm not sure of the exact ingredients but apparently it's not supposed to have nearly the additives Gatorade has. Seems expensive though. Is your powder pretty economical?

*http://www.elytesport.com/

[eers]

Biologist,

I'm sorry - I guess I was spacing out that I didn't acknowledge your detailed comments. Those explanations shed a lot of light.

I'm going to keep going with D-Ribose and in the way you suggest, more with meals (seems like half of my meals these days are supplements) and with a little juice earlier on. I did this this morning again, after breakfast and with OJ and I'm feeling generally tired and sluggish but I'll look at this as investments for the next few days . I'll experiment with dosage to see if that helps as well, better some rather than none. Also, it seems that everything new is a bit hard on me but I seem to adjust eventually - I had the same issues with CoQ10 as well.

I know this is going to be different for everyone but how much is a typical Acetyl-L-Carnitine doseage - I'm taking 400 with 200 Alpha Lipoic Acid. I feel like that gives me some relief as you mentioned, but only taking it during lunch time. Is it unheard of for us to bump this up significantly without any adverse effects?

eers

[David Staup]

eers,
I mix 1/8 teaspoon (sometimes more) of Mortons lite salt mixture with 32 oz water. the 1/8 teaspoon is 6% and5% of the daily value for sodium and potassium respectively...very inexpensive indeed. not as tasty on food so I don't use it there.

Biologist
While I did not attend GT I spent a fair amount of time there in the metalurgy dept. (dr. Chackaborty I believe) servicing equipment while based in Raleigh, NC (go Wolfpack) and have some rather amusing anectdotes from several visits. I was actually snowed in on campus sometime in the mid to late 70's. spent the night at some frat house on a couch. they had had the foresight to stock up on beer as soon as the flakes started so it wasn't so bad!!!! never did like Atlanta much though -much perfered Charleston or Athens. Although the atlanta airport was the best in the country for people watching!

By the way I grew up in South Bend Ind. so in my heart I will always be rooting for the IRISH even when they suck.

David

[Biologist]

eers,

I take carnitine (and usually ALA) first thing in the morning on an empty stomach before eating or showering. Right now I am out of Acetyl so I take regular carnitine (which may actually be best for about everything else except for crossing the blood brain barrier for helping neurons). The capsule happens to be 855 mg.

It's good to see some GT people here, even if there may be a defector or two in our midst. But I'm a bit of a Judas myself from time to time. When I'm in Raleigh I have to keep quite about GT, or get beatup again...

I'm still pretty steamed about this:

"The football team credited Gatorade with their first
Orange Bowl win over the Georgia Tech Yellow Jackets
in 1967, and the drink became an instant phenomenon.
The Yellow Jackets coach Bud Carson, when asked why
they lost, replied: "We didn’t have Gatorade. That made
the difference."

I don't much go in for cheating, underhanded tactics, or any and all other forms of domestic terrorism; and am disappointed to see that it started in the States in 1967! I was never much on American geography, but I have noticed a trend. It's some of our most extreme southern states where this stuff seems to have originated. You know, states like Florida, Cuba, Madrid, Tallahassee, and other places like that. Despicable!

Biologist

[Biologist]

Nope, I was wrong. It's still there -- the 60% comment. But not where I remembered. It is the first sentence in the "Indications and uses" section from this hyperlink:

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statin

And here's the text:

"Indications and uses

Statins, the most potent cholesterol-lowering
agents available, lower LDL cholesterol (so-
called "bad cholesterol") by 1.8 mmol/l. This
translates in a 60% decrease in the number
of cardiac events (heart attack, sudden
cardiac death), and a 17% reduced risk of
stroke.[11] "

Very dubious meta-study if you ask me, or better, if you ask those who know how it all works in the world of medical research findings for Pharma, as you will see below.

Here is footnote 11 from the Wikipedia text quoted above right from the British Medical Journal itself:

("BMJ Helping Doctors Make Better Decisions" -- yeah, right.)

*http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/326/7404/1423

And some of the text that got my antenna up from that BMJ study right away:

"Thirdly, there is a paradox in that meta-analyses of
randomised trials showed that statins reduced the
incidence of strokes by about 30%, but cohort
studies showed no association between serum
cholesterol concentrations and stroke."

I was thinking I would like to see Dr. Uffe Ravnskov rip it apart; but looks like some others have beat him to it. Check out the "Rapid Response" section at the very end of that BMJ page. Or just use this URL to find the responses more quickly:

*http://www.bmj.com/cgi/eletters/326/7404/1423

On the upside, I bet the BMJ got a new "highrise publishing wing" or two constructed free of charge after that publication. And the Wikipedia page on statins for Pharma is not lying -- not when someone else is willing to do it for them. Thanks, BMJ. You are just alright!

Biologist

[David Staup]

As Churhill once said "There are lies, damn lies, and statistics"

in so many of these situations we get all three at once!

Just throwing that out into the aether

David

[eers]

While we're still barely on the Gatorade topic...

I had to leave town this weekend and packed everything except the D-Ribose & my Omega 3 bottle. I woke up Saturday feeling very tired, and it dragged on all day - it was memorably bad. Regardless, I was outside on a drive and feeling thirsty -- I grabbed a Gatorade and amazingly within 30 mins to 1 hour felt much better. I could think past the next effort for the rest of the night and actually have a conversation.

I am now drinking a large amount of fluid everyday and having a banana every morning, but I can only guess I'm not getting enough salt intake or other minerals? Enough of the same thing happened this morning. So I left on my return leg with a bottle of water with a bit of salt in it. It made things much more tolerable. I often wake up thirsty but don't ever crave for salt as you mentioned David, but this would seem contradictory. Or maybe the salt is just allowing me to retain water that my body needs and is not holding (I am going to the bathroom - but I don't think an unusual amount).

Another thing - I went and got my BP measured while I was out on Saturday and it came in at 140/90. I've nearly always have had a normal BP and this was surprising (and could be wrong - my pulse was 61 - I'm 37 years old and not in bad shape, but that seems a bit low for me). I feel like the kid with too many holes in the dike and not enough fingers. This was prior to the gatorade (salt intake) but I thought salt would affect BP in the opposite way.

David - you mentioned in another post how you were hearing a "whooshing sound"...guess what!!! Woke up to that this morning too. It seems apple cider vinegar needs to be added to the arsenal.

Anyway, at this point I've only been on CoQ10, Acetyl-L-Carnitine + Alpha Lipoic Acid, B vits (6,12 and folic acid) and Omega 3 fish oil. I just order Magnesium Oratate. But I got a feeling I need to dig deeper into salt issue and maybe just check my vitamin levels (I think D was mentioned as well). Is there a standard test(s) for this that I should request?

eers

[David Staup]

eers,

well from what you say my guess is still electrolyte imbalance...the more water you drink the more electrolytes you excrete and therefore need to replace. don't forget you need a balance of electrolytes which is why I use the lite salt ...it has sodium and potassium both...you also need magnesium and calsium which is another story.

In the beginning I recorded liquid intake and output using a graduated container, well 2 containers actually ...before I added the electrolyte I was needing between 120 and 150 oz per day (60-90 is considered normal) and only outputting 1/3 of input...this was when I was exercising per doctors recommendation.

the rise in your BP could have been due to your anxiety or it could be something else..the fact that you felt better after the gatorade should be a clue. it used to be considered normal for bp to equal 100 + your age for a man... a resting pulse rate is good and indicative of someone in shape

David

I would ask for comprehensive blood and urine tests,

[David Staup]

it should have read a resting pulse of 61 is good........

[eers]

Hi David,

Thanks for your thoughtful replies. Last week I continued a few things - salt water + gatorade (on occasion). Started on the magnesium orotate as well. I also took one week break from the message boards - I'm always bad at balancing and I'm trying to temper my anxiousness and perhaps it helped. Several days last week were better, but I've had somewhat of a relapse the last few days. I know the road back to normal has it's ups and downs and hopefully I'll be back on an upswing soon.

I never went back to check on the BP. I will eventually get a BP kit and test it. 61 pulse would be great, I'm not sure it's accurate just as the BP reading. For now I think I'll stick with what's working - picking up my CoQ10 levels and generally keeping rested and eating better.

How are you doing these days?

[David Staup]

eers,

I think you're on the right path and beginning to understand the cause and effect of recoveries ups and downs. and that's the first step! I hope and pray you will continue to experience more good days than bad, always remember there will be someone here to listen.

as for me, I never learn, I've been catching up and over doing things again (my usual helpers are all off to school). If I had any pain meds I'd be a zombie right now but I'll recover.. thank you for asking

David

[eers]

A development...

I had two blood tests the last two weeks, one was for Lyme disease (negative) and one for Vitamin Deficiency. I just got the second back, the normal range for Vit D deficiency is 32-100 (I'm not sure of the units), mine is at 16.2.

I guess the Cod Liver Oil and eggs isn't enough. They're calling in a prescription for me. I found your post earlier David stating that cholesterol is a precursor to Vit D production within the body, which makes a lot of sense.

In any case, this could be the cause of a lot of the symptoms that I'm having - muscle twitches, cramps and now joint pain. Thanks to this board for recommending that I get this tested -- if I listened to my doctor I'd be in therapy with a psychiatrist right now.

[David Staup]

eers,

good for you...
my level was 13 and I refused the perscription strength suppliment (should not have) I found a 1000 iu over the counter and take 3 a day now... what strength is your perscription...

if you follow the trail from vit d defficiency you find all kinds of problems see:

*http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/vdds.shtml

and this one doctors don't seem to understand:

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypophosphatemia

sometimes I think I'm better at diagnostics than any doctor I seen...
sometimes I amaze even myself

David

[eers]

Turns out my prescription is for 50000 IU taken once a week. It's funny - all the side effects are my problems now dizziness, weakness, bone and muscle pain, etc etc etc.

Let's see what happens...