Asking the "experts" for their opinions

[valgators]

Since starting my supplement regimen, I have noticed a reduction in overall achiness and soreness. However, since about late April, I have suffered with chronic daily pain in the upper back, TMJ area and neck (left side only). The SCM muscle stays chronically swollen.

Last week I had a appt. with an intervention specialist at Mayo. He reviewed my MRI's, x-rays and concluded that I have little to no arthritis issues but felt it was muscle related (I wasn't surprised by that). He put me on a trial run of Flexeril while I am going to PT trying to get things improved. In the past few months at Mayo, I have also seen a physiatrist, and a musculoskeletal specialist. They all say the problems are muscle-related.

My efforts at treatment include PT (second go-round), trigger point injections and nerve blocks and chiropractic care. Nothing helps for long. The only thing that really helped me and almost eliminated my pain was a treatment of prednisone which was given to treat costochrondritis in August. Of course that is not a medication that can be taken indefinitely.

[cjbrooksjc]

V: I empathize completely. One of my current and long-lived complaints is just as you describe - the muscles of the upper back and back of the neck - as though I had been reading with my head down for hours. I also have aches in my femur hamstrings and calves of like nature. It will be interesting to find out the result of your therapy.

Likewise, a steroid shot is the only thing that seems to help me though I avoid them. I haven't had one in two years. What I don't know is WHY that should make such a marked difference. I admit I don't have a clue how steroids work, but there must be some useful data in that solution.

Brooks

[Biologist]

Brooks,

Have you ever figured you might just stay quite when you think you have the answer because the answer would seem so incredible that you would not really enlighten, but merely damage your credibility?

Well, here goes anyway:

How do steroids work? They raise cholesterol levels. How do localized injected steroids work? They raise local cholesterol levels.

From page 156 of "Alzheimer's Solved" by Henry Lorin:

"Most autoimmune diseases and reheumatic disorders are actually a continuing response by the body to cell membranes that are simply falling apart. The body is continually sensing that the "insides" of cells are on the outside. There is a constant effort in progress to repair cell membranes. Medical professionals interpret this constant effort as being an autoimmune response.

What is the one class of medications that are helpful in almost every autoimmune disease? The answer is steriods, such as prednisone. How do steroids, which actually are a more powerful synthetic version of cortisol, bring about the relief of symptoms in patients with autoimmune disease? [My comment: or statin damage?] The answer always given is that steroids stabilize the membranes of various parts of cells thought to play a role in inflammation. How do steriods actually stabilize the membranes of cells? Supposedly, no one knows.

For the true answer to this question, we need only to discuss one of the major side effects of steriods, which is the raising of blood cholesterol levels. As stated in a previous section this is not an annoying side-effect of steroid therapy; it is, in fact, the actual reason behind the relief of symptoms that are brought about by using them. The increased amounts of available cholesterol molecules can be used for the repair of cell membranes. The leakage of cell contents then stops. This results in a decrease in the signs of inflammation."

My comment: What is one of the major signs of inflammation? Pain.

In another recent post I mentioned the experiment of having patients eat 35 eggs per day. Actually that was for burn victims. While he did not mention it, I think I can guarantee that what they were hoping to do was raise systemic cholesterol levels via food in order to assist the rebuilding and creation of cells which takes a lot of the most important molecule in the body, cholesterol. It failed due to the "hardwired" cholesterol/liver feedback system which cuts off absorption after a set amount. Ironically, what Pharma really needs to do is figure out ways to increase cholesterol!!

Unfortunately, these steriods actually act as HMG CoA Reductase Inhibitors!! They stop onsite cellular production of cholestrol (and also "systemic production" from the liver if the steriods travel throughout the blood stream as occurrs when taking them in pill form). This is why you cannot continue to use them without serious side effects. So where does the raised blood levels of cholestrerol come from? The steriod forces other healthy cells to liberate their own valuable supply of cholesterol molecules! And those cells can only do that for so long. BTW, what is the biggest "repository" of cholesterol in the body? That's right, the brain. So if you stay on steriods too long (particularly systemic, rather than localized injections), your brain shrinks!

Biologist

[cjbrooksjc]

Biologist: Thanks. A useful and informative response. If I weren't one of the lab rats, this entire topic would be a fascinating diversion.

Best,

Brooks

[harley2ride]

Must be different for us with Mitochondrial Myopathy from statins.. Steroids make me notably worse, and it happens quickly......

[Biologist]

Thanks for the info, harley2ride. For a while you were on prednisone, right? Or something similar? (Lyicra (spelled way off, I know.) I thought that was working for you. Are you only speaking of shots that caused the problem for you?

Biologist

[Biologist]

I read this recent post of yours after posting:

http://www.spacedoc.net/board/viewtopic.php?p=8309#8309

I guess I still have the question about what that is. I was thinking that stuff was a steriod.

Biologist

[Brian C.]

Here's some details about Lyrica (pregabalin):

*http://www.drugs.com/lyrica.html

"Lyrica is an anti-epileptic drug, also called an anticonvulsant. It works by slowing down impulses in the brain that cause seizures. Lyrica also affects chemicals in the brain that send pain signals across the nervous system.

Lyrica is used to control seizures and to treat fibromyalgia. It is also used to treat pain caused by nerve damage in people with diabetes (diabetic neuropathy) or herpes zoster (post-herpetic neuralgia).

Lyrica may also be used for other purposes..."


Brian.

[harley2ride]

I think it was prednasone, and it was pill form. They also tried a couple of other steroids, and even DHEA ( a natural steroid). All of these caused me joint pain and muscle pain, shortly after starting them.

[Biologist]

Thanks, Brian.

I should have Googled it. Interesting.

Here is something that may not be as easy to Google, if anyone has any ideas on it. But don't knock yourself out. It is on my list to try to research in coming months. The question is why, after statin damage, we seem to produce less carnitine and CoQ10. Or maybe we produce the same amount, but need more. What is up here? If you have run across a satisfactory answer, I would be interested in knowing what the thinking is on that. But again, it is on my list for future research. I know Ray has commented on it, but not on the mechanism, as far as I know.

Something else I want to look into more is alcohol and statin use. If my concerns check out, this is pretty major, I just have not had the time to get into it much. And I have never really heard it, or read it, discussed. When I was reading from the statin study website (which BTW, appears to have improved a bit based on a cursory viewing recently, but not a thorough one which I plan before long), it amazed me that there was a section on heart health that discussed the virtues of light drinking for heart health, and we have heard this for years. There must be something to it. And if so, I suspect its positive effects may dwarf that of statins for prevention of heart disease (primary care). However, when reading the various brands of statins product insert sheets for the drugs that also appear/appeared on that website, at least two of them (one being Zocor, if i remember right) stated that ALCOHOL SHOULD NOT BE CONSUMED !!! They did NOT say to drink only in moderation, they state: DON'T DO IT. I was sure never warned about this conflict. And for good reason perhaps. There may have been a good reason I was not warned by my doctor (as he was not reminded in the hundreds of visits he had received from drug reps prior to my first prescription), it appears to, on its own, put the lie to statins!! Give up a known preventative (i.e., alcohol) -- and one that people actually enjoy -- in order to PAY FOR for a less effective and potentially dangerous treatment (i.e., statins) which must not be taken in the presence of alcohol. See what I am getting at?! I think this may be super major!. Now, having studied endocrinology a bit, and also our liver's systems for eliminating toxins, I know of at least two real good reasons to suspect taht the combination of statins and alcohol could be disastrous. The trick would be to have it in writing as a warning, but be careful never to mention it to the prescribing doctors. That accomplishes the objective: Safe from legal ramifications, but at the same time, not effecting sales. I just wanted to get this idea "out there" for others to consider. Were you (and others) warned to stay away from alcohol by your doctors? Again, this could be huge.

Some thoughts on Vitamin C and heart disease that do not belong in this thread, but better here than not at all and I do not have time to put it in the correct thread and then follow the thread for answering/addressing responses. Here it is: VC is so cheap and safe, that it makes no sense not to take it in therapeutic doses (i.e., several grams per day spread out throughout the day) even if there is only a 10% chance that it works as well as Pauling suggested. But there is clearly much higher odds than that in my book -- perhaps approaching 80% or higher. Pauling was a very intelligent and knowledgeable man, and one who was motivated properly. Those who lead the charge against him and VC are none of the above. Therefore, not to take adequate amounts of VC (and Proline and L-lysine) is pretty damn stupid in my book. In short, that's my thinking on that matter. It is also entirely consistent with our knowledge of the world that his cheap and effective prevention method would be attacked relentlessly.

Biologist

[Brian C.]

Biologist, did I send you the papers on heme a that Bruce Ames sent me?


Brian.

[harley2ride]

My doctor, did recommend that I add a daily vitamin to my regime. And to make sure that it had plenty of vitamin D as well as C..

[Biologist]

Brian,

I will probably email you next week (but if not you'll know why, see below). I will put "Bruce Ames" in the subject line. Thanks.

Hope Big Phama don't have your number. Those boys play mean -- I know 'cause I watch a lot of TV and stuff. Ever seen "The Fugitive"? That was a mulit-billion dollar lipid lowering drug they were knocking people off for -- sound familiar? I bet Big Pharma don't like that movie too good as it hits a little close to home. For example, merely substitute "Lipitor" for "Provasic" and "Pfizer" for "Devlin MacGregor" & "Dr. Nichols." And there you go! Shameless script writers. Wonder if there's been any lawsuits?

On the other hand, word has it Pharma's gots plenty of computer hacking one-armed men on the payroll these days!!

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fugitive_(1993_film)

"Meanwhile, Kimble is able to convince a former colleague to help him do some lab tests, and he discovers that Nichols, who also has ties to Devlin MacGregor, had inserted false liver samples from a test subject who was taking Provasic, a drug developed by Devlin MacGregor that was on the verge of being approved by the FDA. Nichols stands to benefit financially and professionally from the drug's release, and Kimble was on the verge of presenting evidence that Provasic caused serious liver damage. Realising that Kimble would destroy any chances the drug had of being approved, Nichols was determined to eliminate Kimble. He hired Sykes as a hitman and gave him the key to Kimble's house (which is why the police found no evidence of a break-in). However, Kimble was unexpectedly called away to perform surgery, leaving Helen the only one home when Sykes attacked."

Biologist

[Brian C.]

Why should they need bother with such crude measures when they can still rely on the good ol' FDA to do their whitewashing...

*http://blogs.wsj.com/health/2008/09/30/fda-study-shows-statins-dont-increase-risk-of-als/


Brian.