Supplementing with CoQ10??

[peter s]

Apologies if this is old ground. If many statin side effects are the result of depletion of CoQ10, can they be avoided/minimized by supplementation?

[cjbrooksjc]

The sad truth is Statins gird an enzyme pathway (cpy34a) very early in its production cycle which by itself is responsible for production of HEME-A, and Dolichols as well as CoQ10. Certainly CoQ10 supplementation is beneficial if you are taking statins, but CoQ10 is only one of the elemental productions Statins depress. The best and most pro-active response is to stop.

Best,

Brooks

[peter s]

Part of me certainly wants to do that, before I get into serious side effect country (I am about two weeks on lipitor 80 mg following an MI). But the other part of me is very scared of what happened to me, reluctant to jettison my doctor's advice so soon, and also I have to deal with my wife who naturally says follow your doctor's orders. A familar script to many of you I am sure but the first time I have been there.

[cjbrooksjc]

The MI does matter. It is the one area where statins seem to be helpful because statins reduce inflammation, and heart disease is primarily a matter of the body's reaction to arterial wall inflammation; not cholesterol. BUT THERE ARE SO MANY OTHER anti-inflammatory DRUGS.

Not everyone seems to develop severe statin side effects - for whatever reason - but if you ARE having them, NOW is the time to act, before your mitochondria are damaged beyond recovery. 80 Mg is a skyrocketing amount of Lipitor. I would at lease ask yr Dr if it must be so high. And I would be taking AT LEAST 600 Mg of GOOD 'Kaneka' CoQ10 daily in 200 MG doses after eating.

Here's a CoQ10 link *http://www.epic4health.com/20ac30sousub.html
Do not include the asterisk when you link.

Also, for your own education, Google Dr. Peter Langsjoen and read some of his papers on statins and CoQ10, also read some of the articles Dr Graveline has written (go to the Home page).

80 MG! My God!... just the thought of it weakens me.


My most sincere best wishes,

Brooks

[peter s]

Thank you. I am going to see if I can cut back to 40 or even 20 and take it from there. As to the coq10 600 mg seems a huge dose of the ubiquinol which is so highly absorbed? Life Extension Foundation recommended 100-200?

[cjbrooksjc]

It is certainly not uncommon for statin damaged individuals to take 600 Mg. I take 600Mg because Dr. Langsjoen recommended it to me. There are many on this site taking more than 600 Mg. I don't know if the Life Ext Fdn recommends that amount for Statin damaged individuals; I am not familiar with their work. The only side effect of too much CoQ10 is bright green urine and a small dent in your pocketbook. Personally, I wish I could turn back the clock to my first yr on Statins so I could take 600 Mg of CoQ10/day and perhaps miss this bullet entirely. In the final chapter, the choice is entirely yours. All I can do is suggest. Do a SEARCH on this site for CoQ10 - you will have enough supporting doc to keep you busy for an entire afternoon.

Best,

Brooks

[peter s]

Did you see Dr. Langsjoen personally or consult with him long distance? I did email him a week or so ago, after reading some of his articles, but did not hear back from him.

[peter s]

FWIW this recent study suggests stopping statins after an MI is a very bad idea, doubles the risk of dying. This is why I am kinda afraid to just unilaterally make that decision against my doctors' wishes.

*http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/news/fullstory_68948.html

[Ray Holder]

I don't think Brooks is suggesting taking the CoQ10 as ubiquinol, which is expensive and allegedly more potent than Kaneka Ubiquinone Q10, the form which I take regularly.

I would certainly question the large dose of Lipitor. Allen1 had very bad side effects after an MI, still not yet totally resolved, and I have another friend in UK who had continuing and dreadfully painful muscle problems from the same set of circumstances for 4 years, before starting CoQ10 and carnitine. If you feel you must continue with the Lipitor, Dr Graveline somewhere said that most of the benefit comes with the smallest dose, with little increase from larger ones.

I have just today received a copy of " The Sinatra solution,metabolic cardiology". He tells of the benefits of Q10 and Carnitine after MI problems, you can read a lot of it page by page if you get it up on Google

Ray

[cjbrooksjc]

Dr. Langsjoen is my cardiologist. He recommended the Q10 shown in the link I gave you, and he also recommended the dosage. It took weeks for him to answer my emails and set up my first appointment. And, as I said - the MI makes a difference as it is one of the few times statins make any sense at all. Keep your Dr. involved, keep gleaning all the supportive data you can, and make an informed decision. I surely don't blame you for being hesitant. This is an extremely complicated set of circumstances, and the one person who needs to know the most about it is, unfortunately, you. And it's all self-education - your Dr. likely can't help you much.

Let me say one final thing. Your mitochondria (organelles in each cell with their own RNA mapping and DNA) provide ALL the energy for your body - ALL OF IT -, they manage waste removal from your cells, and they manage the fluid levels. If they don't function properly, your cells begin to suffer; primarily your muscle tissue cells, and your most active and important muscle is... ? Statins compromise the Mevalonate pathway (CPY34A) which supplies essential enzymes, including CoQ10, to the mitochondria. Without an adequate supply of these materials, the mito begin to weaken. If this goes on long enough, the mito can be permanently affected. Get smart about mitochondria and then ask your Dr if he knows how Statins affect them, and listen to his/her response.

Finally, I know the MI makes a huge difference in your decision, but I would be darn sure your Dr knows whats going on inside (how statins affect the mitochondria), even if you have to educate him/her, before you follow blindly. I'm not telling you to get off your meds, but to get educated and involved and know how these drugs affect your body. That intention is what brought you to this site and this site is a good first step.

I am not a Dr. but a Statinized sufferer. All I can give you is my opinion and my best wishes that situation passes without further incident or long lasting effects.


Best regards,

Brooks

[peter s]

perhaps i misunderstood but I thought Brooks WAS suggesting that as his link was to a 200 mg UBIQUINOL product?

[cjbrooksjc]

Peter: Yes, you are correct. The site is for a recommended Kaneka UBIQUINOL product.

Brooks

[peter s]

Brooks: thank you. Being in Massachusetts obviously Dr. Langsjoen cannot be my cardiologist and likely he will tell me, if he does answer, that he can't give medical advice except in person so I guess I have to extrapolate on my own what might be advisable.

I did succeed today, through some resourcefulness, in convincing my cardiologist to lower my dose from 80 to 20. As I have only been on the 80 for two weeks after my 9-7 MI, during which except for the first days in the hospital I have been supplementing with the Kaneka ubiquinol although perhaps at less than optimal dose, I am hopeful I won't have any lasting issues from the temporary dose. Going forward I am not thrilled with taking 20 mg either, or my low dose beta blocker for that matter (won't get into that or the blood thinners here), but it seems better than 80 and with the CoQ10 maybe I will come out of it OK.

Thanks for your thoughtful input.

PETER

[cjbrooksjc]

Peter: Yes, a reduction to 20 is a great improvement. Congratulations!

Best,

Brooks

[peter s]

I am still confused about CoQ10 dosage. People on other forums are saying Dr. Langsjoen told them to take 300mg, or 100mg -- maybe it is an individualized thing related to statin dose or if after the fact extent of statin damage? Other people recommend taking both ubiquinol AND ubiquinone? There doesn't seem to be anything approaching a consensus even as to what Dr. Langsjoen recommends.

Also I find conflicting information on his underlying philosophy -- does he believe that statins are bad, or just that one should take CoQ10 to mitigate their side effects? An abstract of one article he co-authored begins with the observation that statins are efficacious and that most people tolerate them well?

http://www.citeulike.org/user/grottenol ... le/1766004

[Brian C.]

"An abstract of one article he co-authored begins with the observation that statins are efficacious and that most people tolerate them well? "

Any study involving statins has to begin with that shibboleth to get published in the peer review journals. Even if the conclusion states the opposite as long as the abstract begins with those words the editors feel they have done their job - and so can keep it.

Abstracts are all that most doctors read.

Brian.

[Ray Holder]

peters
I think the problem is that the dosage for Q10 is dependant upon the individual's needs.
200 mg or so is a good starting point for someone still on a statin, but without yet any adverse effects. Thereafter, it all depends on how great is your damage, and what is necessary to make up the deficiency. I know I am not the normal case, at 87, with heart failure from Q10 and carnitine deficiency always waiting in the wings, and having to keep my levels up all the time, but 900 mg daily is what I most certainly need.

There is no simple method of measuring Q10 levels, so one must experiment to see what is best for yourself, even reducing the dose for a day or two to see if you really need that much.

As for myself, I stick to ubiquinone Q10, I know how much I need, and QH ubiquinol is dearer but alleged to be effective in smaller quantities, one should only play with the least number of variables at a time, or symptoms occur and you don't know which change caused them.

Dr Langsjoen keeps a fairly low profile, I believe his father was ostracised for continuing Q10 research, and his statements are not in any way provacative. He maintains the need for Q10 after statins, and one of his trial papers shows that statin damaged patients in that trial fared quite well without statins, but with Q10. I think he has quite a tightrope to walk in his professional capacity, but is most definitely on the right side.

Ray

[peter s]

Ray thank you. Other than some PACs/PVCs which could be due to many things other than Lipitor, I can't say I have any definite side effects after three weeks. I did take it upon myself to get my doctor to approve a dose reduction, as 80 mg just seemed too high under the circumstances, so I am now on 20.

I am taking 100 mg of the ubiquinol which, if the marketing is to be believed, translates to a significantly higher intake of ubiquinone, probably more than 200 a day and maybe much more. I am still thinking about taking more based on some other stuff I have read, or maybe adding some ubiquinone to the mix to cover all the bases, but it's hard to get any definitive guidance. As I am taking it for prevention not symptom relief at this point, hard to really go by my symptoms; for all I know I could take NO CoQ10 and be fine or at this dose I could feel fine for now but be harboring a problem.

[cjbrooksjc]

Peter: It is an odd fact that the majority of statin users don't experience all the debilitating side effects as those of us on this forum. I have friends whom I've warned off Statins, but their Cholesterol #'s are being lowered and they feel fine; so, they continue to take them. They do, however, agree to take the CoQ10 along with their medication.

If one believes that lower cholesterol #'s are a good thing, then the medication may be considered efficacious. I don't think Dr Langsjoen feels cholesterol control is necessarily a bad thing (I am convinced it IS - except for instances of hyperlipidemia) and so might report his findings to reflect that position. He (Langsjoen) found in me some heart impairment consistent with statin damage and recommended 600 Mg of CoQ10 daily to recover lost function which, for the most part, I have. As Ray has written, "...Q10 dosage is dependent on an individual's needs." Since you have had an MI (obvious heart impairment) I would recommend the 600 Mg route.

Also, Ubiquinol is simply a product of manufacture that results in a more Bio-available form of Q10 - your body can use it more easily. I can't understand why anyone would want to use both. Ray, who also has some heart impairment, uses Kaneka Ubiquinone and finds it quite satisfactory. I use Ubiquinol simply because Dr Langsjoen recommended it. I hope this helps to answer some of your questoins.

Best,

Brooks

[cjbrooksjc]

Peter: If you care to send me your email Adddr. I will send you a file I keep on links, articles, etc. relative to Statins, Mitochondria, Heart disease, etc. There is enough information in the content and links to keep you goal oriented and get you informed. NO OBLIGATION if you wish to remain email anonymous.

Brooks