No More Supplements

[gotts1936]

I have tried COQ10 and L-Carnitine three times. Everytime my leg muscles hurt more than I was not taking these supplements. My system appears to to reject COQ10 and L-Carnitine. I am sure it is just me. So I am going to stop all supplements and see what happens. If, my legs dry up and fall off I will let you all know. Wish me luck, please.

[valgators]

Gotts:

I have been wondering the same thing. I seemed to do ok on the
COQ10, but since I added the L-Carnitine I have regressed to more and more aches. I think I will take your lead and stop them for awhile and await the results.

Thanks for posting. That was helpful.

Valgators

[Darrell]

Q10 and carnitine may not help, but they should not hurt. Both are in your body naturally to some extent. Would you two mind sharing with us exactly what brand/manufacturer you've been using of each?

[valgators]

Darrell:

I would be happy to share......the L-carnitine is manufactured by Bluebonnet (500 mg) and COQ10 is made by Natural Factors (200 mg).
I purchased both from the local health food store.

The increase in aches and pains may just be the ebb and flow of this disorder(?). I don't know what causes good days and then not so good days. I appreciate your thoughts on this.

valgators

[gotts1936]

Darrell: My COQ10 200 mg is mfg'd by Nature's Bounty and the L-Carnitine 500 mg is mfg'd by Rexall. I just looked at the other ingredients in the L-Carnitine tablet and was surprised to see so many other ingredients. I must add that after having an increase in discomfort with the L-Carnitine I did switch to Acety-L-Carnitine 500mg capsules mfg'd by VRP and still had greater discomfort.

Valgators: I agree with you the COQ10 did not appear to increase discomfort. Now, that I think about it, the Carnitine may be the culprit. But, I am still going stay off the supplements and see what happens. Good luck to you. I'll keep you informed.

[Darrell]

So, is anybody else here using L-carnitine from Rexall or Bluebonnet and what is your experience?

[cjbrooksjc]

My LC and ALC come from Gonsi.com. I have not had any difficulties.

Brooks

[gotts1936]

Darrell: Do not forget, I switched to Acety-L-Caeniyine mfg'd by Vitamin Research Products out of Carson City, Nevada. Also, the VRP Carnitine does not have other ingredients like the Rexall Carnitine. I have been off the COQ10 and Carnitine for two days and pain has subsided alittle, but it is to early, so I will wait a week to determine if my leg muscles feel any better.

Brooks: It maybe possible that your body responds well to Carnitine. Over the past year I have wondered wether I really need a carnitine supplement. My leg muscles have been damaged and I do not believe that any supplement is going to return them to normal use.

[cjbrooksjc]

gotts: Wish I could offer some helpful advice; sadly, all I can think is the Carnitine is providing muscle strength where none existed due to the Statin dmage, and the muscles are flexing in an unnatural, unbalanced way. I remember from old classes (and I mean old - like before we walked upright) that the leg muscles, to prevent tissue exhaustion of any particular part of the leg, take turns (in sets) bearing our weight. Maybe one set of muscles is more incapacitated than another and complains when its turn comes. I am truly confused as to how a clean supplement of a naturally occurring product such as carnitine can cause pain in the amounts you cite. Regardless, I wish you well in your journey.

Best,

Brooks

[cjbrooksjc]

Gotts: One other thing I forgot to mention: I've suffered my share of body trauma, and if you have as well, you know that getting well can sometimes hurt as much or more that getting hurt; maybe that's what is going on. Just a thought.

Brooks

[gotts1936]

Brooks: Thank you for your response. I just do not know of any studies which show that L-Carnitine can repair muscle wasting and/or tendon displacement. If you do, please, provide that info to me.
Plus, as a 71 Year old Male, I am a red meat eater and as we know red meaters get more L-Carnitine than vegans. I hope I did not mis-speak.
My real point is, if the pain I have is more or the same taking L-Carnitine, why pay ridiculous prices for a supplement and not get any relief? Just a question!

[cjbrooksjc]

Gotts: I thought it best to get you a link to a site that is concerned with, and only with, muscle building. I think that addresses your concerns quite effectively. Below are a few excerpts from the link followed by the link itself - remove the ** before you use the link.

L-carnitine transfers long-chain fatty acids, such as triglycerides into mitochondria (a cell's energy powerhouse), where they may be oxidized to produce energy.

L-carnitine is a very popular supplement that promotes growth and development.

L-carnitine is also used for fat-burning, increasing energy, and improving resistance to muscle fatigue.

L-carnitine also helps to build muscle.

It is also great in dieting, as it reduces feelings of hunger and weakness.

**http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/lcarn.html

Brooks

[gotts1936]

Brooks: Again. I really appreciate your responses. You appear so knowledgeable on this subject. Unfortunately, all the positive comments about L-Carnitine are concerning individuals who have normal muscles. In other words. muscles that have not been damaged by statin drugs, etc. And, I apologize because I did not open the website you provided.

[adec]

I don't believe this has anything to do with supplement quality. Statins break down muscle tissue, which causes an abundance of creatinine/creatine (among other aminos, including carnitine) in the liver, kidneys, and pancreas. Couple that with the potential damage caused by statins along vital pathways, but especially the melavonate. CoQ10, vitamin C, magnesium, niacin, cinnamon, garlic etc. also work along this same now damaged pathway, and perhaps mimic these statin-induced sides.

Without proper liver function no substance gets fully metabolized. An improper metabolism means weakened immunity, diminished glycogen, protein synthesis and detoxification etc. And increasing supplementation only means an overburdened system trying to maintain function under a toxic backlog. This probably further creates intolerances to the same substances needed by the body to heal. I believe this is the primary problem for those first trying to recover from statin-induced damage.

Also, taking huge amounts of carnitine alone, without alpha lipoic acid, could potentially cause an excess of liver inflammation, in the form of free radicals. *Both carnitine and alpha-lipoic acid supplements go hand-in-hand.... along with acetylcholine, which further helps
increase the bioavailability of each other. Alpha-GPC most efficiently converts into acetylcholine in the brain, lecithin to a lesser extent. Or just eat egg yolks, which have plenty of lecithin* Incidentally, NSAIDs used to relieve pain and inflammation, even such as OTC ibuprofen, would also cause elevated liver enzymes. Adding acetaminophen to the mix causes further liver damage, and is a potentially toxic combination.

The real effort in these cases might be to restore cellular function and heal the liver, kidney, and panaceas. And then to try and replenish these organs with those same beneficial enzymes used to metabolize these drugs and supplements. In this way, your liver can help to redistribute vital aminos like carnitine, creatine, and carnosine, CoQ10 and other important elements, back to the tissues where they belong.

I would try vitamin D3, as the analog of statins, to increase immunity. I also like probiotics and digestive enzymes taken alongside supplementation. This would help to make supplements more absorbable, even without a properly functioning kidney. And then increasing liver health and regenerative powers with substances such as milk thistle, Pirkoliv, Leci-PC, and N-acetyl Cysteine. I highly recommend the Liver Support powder being sold at Beyondacentury.com, it contains all of these liver healing supplements for a very reasonable price. I would post the link, but it always gets deleted. Yes, regenerating the liver (almost no matter how damaged) is a very obtainable goal. I've used all of these things to very great success.

[adec]

And by the way Gotts, you make a very valid point. No, I don't believe CoQ10 or l-carnitine is the complete answer. It's like filling your car with oil only after you've damaged the engine. Nor is the difference between l-carnitine or acetyl-l-carnine the missing factor either. There's so much more at work here not being addressed. In this case, we need to enter through the side entrance, not the front door.

I'm just waiting for even one forum member (with these huge intolerances) to concentrate on the liver/kidney/pancreas aspect, so everyone can possibly further benefit from their anecdotal success. At least then someone can finally prove me either right or wrong. I even want to share more information (about nerve regeneration, stem cell proliferators, removing dead scar tissue allowing new growth etc.... really get to the heart of the issue) but instead we're stuck going in circles.

[gotts1936]

adec: I disagree with your premise we are going around in circles. Todate, there are no studies showing statin drug damage can be repaired or if there are any supplements that can provide nerve regeneration or remove dead scar tissue and allow new growth. When or if that day ever comes the drug companies will smash that information before we know about it, because the elimination of disease is not profitable.

[Ray Holder]

Gotts

Have you had a look at my paper "Putting the pieces together" a link to which appears on spacedoc's index page.

In it I have tried to show how statin induced Q10 and carnitine deficiency cause muscle wastage by a form of starvation, as fat for nutrition cannot get into the mitochondria without the presence of carnitine. It is not fully up to speed with experience gained on this board, the used of carnitine for muscle pain arose from posts herein.

The general basic facts seem to be borne out in practice, but more sinister effects of statins have since come to light, which are outside the paper's scope.

Ray

[Biologist]

Gotts,

A couple of comments. You write:

"Todate, there are no studies showing statin drug damage
can be repaired or if there are any supplements that can
provide nerve regeneration or remove dead scar tissue and
allow new growth.
--Gotts

Correct. There are no well-done well-funded studies done on statin damage recovery because statin damage is not acknowledged as being real. Statin damage does not exist. (It would be bad for business it actually existed.) So why should there be studies?!

So we have to go by the next best thing regarding studies. Here's one (while there are several others to be found on this forum) with an excerpt provided with the hyperlink found at the following URL:

http://www.spacedoc.net/board/viewtopic.php?p=3023#3023

You write:

"When or if that day ever comes the drug
companies will smash that information before we know
about it, because the elimination of disease is not profitable."
--Gotts

Correct again.

Here's another example of it. It sure appears Big Pharma is making a play for creating even more sickies to "treat." They would like to do away with (i.e. "smash") the Multivitamin this time, per this article:

*http://www.vrp.com/NewsLetter.aspx?newsdate=4/1/2008#2286

Here's an excerpt:

"Some of the study authors also have drug company affiliations.
One of the researchers reported being a consultant to Merck
and Bayer, another researcher reported receiving research
support from Merck and also is a consultant to Merck, Bayer,
GlaxoSmithKline, and Procter & Gamble."

BTW, carnitine first make my leg hurt worse. I could not find the post where I made that announcement here over a year ago. In a few days, it started to work and the pain went away. The only reason I could come up with is that much lactic acid was being liberated by the carnitine from the cells all at once. After that, things got better. I have not been without it (except for a short failed experiment) since I started using it. I was however, "amused" (read: "incredulous") that at first it set me back for a day or so. This may or may not be the case for you. We are all different and therefore have different types of injuries from our statins.

Interesting posts/ideas, adec. No joke. You might be right on some or all of that. However, I believe you maybe misusing the word "analog" and "anecdotal" though.

Biologist

[gotts1936]

Thanks to all! You are all wonderful. You provide information that is appreciated by those of us who have just recently become victims of statin drug poisoning. As for myself, I am going to continue to stay off of my supplements, COQ10 & L-Carnitine, for two weeks. Also, I am no longer taking vitamin D, Magnesium, B-6 and Omega-3. After, two weeks I will start with COQ10 200mg per day and attempt to monitor my leg muscle response.
Also, I am thinking about going on a fast if my experiment is negative. For those of who have never fasted, please do not worry because I have been on a number of fast during my younger days. In fact, I have been on 7 three day fast, 5 five day fast, 4 eight day fast and 1 twelve fast.
Again, thanks for your responses.
gotts

[gotts1936]

Please excuse the typo's.