Hyper-responder?

[traderrob]

I had a stent placed in November of 07 due to a 90% occluded RCA and was put on 75mg Plavix, 25 mg Toporal and 20 mg Lipitor. My lipid profile prior to the proceedure was TC 196, LDL 120 and HDL 35. After going on the Lipitor my Tot C went to 70 per my home test. I cut it in half and it still was below 100. I have since began dicing it to about 1mg perday and my Total C runs about 135.

Should I even be taking this stuff?

[cjbrooksjc]

If you decide to continue a statin drug, you do so at your own risk. If you have read some of the anecdotal commentary on this board, you know what we all feel can happen because it HAS happened to us: the statin will gird the mevalonate pathway ahead of the CoQ10, Dolochol, and Heme production processes ; this can predispose you to severe mitochondrial damage and muscle atrophy... and your most important muscle is??... No one I know who is a member of this forum continues to take any type of Statin and considers them poisonous to the human body. We are sufferers; not medical practitioners. All we can do is advise from a lay perspective given what we know and our personal experiences. You be the judge.

Best,

Brooks

[cjbrooksjc]

Rob: One more thing: with a TC of 196 you should NOT be on Statins to reduce your cholesterol, let alone 70. Go to some of the links provided in the posts here and on Google, and educate yourself on Statin Side Effects and The Cholesterol Myth.

Brooks

[traderrob]

Even at really low levels of 1mg/day? I read a couple of articles by Dr. Graveline on his main page where he stated that very low levels might be appropriate in some cases.

[cjbrooksjc]

Rob: This will be my last response. If you were flying trans-oceanic, and lost an engine, had 200 miles to go, and your craft held 500 gallons of fuel which, at your current weight, would carry you only 180 miles, would you dump the fuel to lighten the load? That's what this drug does.

Oh, yes, my apologies, and welcome to the forum!

Regards,

Brooks

[traderrob]

Actually CJ I have read a ton on the subject including Malcolm Kendricks great book (The Great Cholesterol Con) I just hate taking any chances.

Frankly I'd stand on my head for 3 hours a day even if there was a remote chance that it could help prevent further damage to my CA.

Presently I'm taking Magnesium citrate 500mg, Super B complex plus additional folic acid 1200mcg, vitamin A 8000 IU, D4000IU, Carnitine, Arginine, Niacin 100mg, 2g/fish oil, 1 gm krill oil, 500mg cod liver oil, vitamin C 5 gm, Lysene 3gm, Proline 1.5 gm, Vitamin K, Resveratrol, 1 glass red wine(5oz) and I briskly walk 5 mi/day.

I eat absolutely NO transfats and very little poly unsaturated fats, lots...7 servings of fuits, vegetables and legumes/day.

I am doing everything I know possible to improve my chances and if a very small dose of statin/day will help with inflammatory response or whatever side benefit I'd hate to eliminate it. I'm not stating, I'm just asking.

[traderrob]

CJ, Sentient analogy, Thanx.

[pgrimm]

I'm sorry, I just have to jump in here. Probably being the least informed and a newcomer, I justify my intrusion due to the guy sitting in my living room who is now unable to work due to lovastatin. By the way, Bill, my guy who now walks with a cane, had a stroke in 2002, with tests showing that his left carotid artery was 100% blocked, making him a non-candidate for surgery. Thus, the prescribed lovastatin, I suppose to prevent the right one from having the same fate.

He is now only on the natural supplements you describe you're taking. I read your cholesterol level and I scratch my head with wonder. Do you really believe (again, admittedly I have no medical knowledge) that cholesterol alone resulted in the 90% blockage? I'm just wondering, this still remains a mystery to me. I'm a healthy eater as well, and my cholesterol overall is 231. My doctor is all for my continuing to use supplements rather than prescribing a statin. Frankly, I would refuse if he did, even if I split it a hundred times. It's easy to become paranoid on this forum, but more if you live with someone who deteriorated so drastically in only two months. ALSO, remember, it's not only a matter of a low dosage of a statin, you have to be very careful about drug interactions, if your doctor ever prescribes any other drugs. We don't really know what over the counter drugs can do over time, either, do we. That's what happened to Bill, his 20mg of lovastatin became much more powerful when they naively prescribed four new drugs over two months time!

I'm very sorry about about your past medical problem, but am more concerned about your future health if you choose to put statin in your body. No one can be sure what dosage is dangerous, case by case.
Good luck.

[pgrimm]

Just for clarification, Bill's stroke left the most minimal speech impairment, nothing else, and he was able to go back to work very soon. That was six years ago. In the past two months, lovastatin has caused him to lose his ability to work, a constant severe headache, muscle and joint pain in his shoulders, arms, legs, back, neck, and he just now walks with a cane. Just didn't want you to think the cane thing was due to the stroke!

[cjbrooksjc]

Rob: You did not mention CoQ10. CoQ10 is ESSENTIAL to recovery from statin damge. Of course, to boost your cellular energy combine CoQ10, L-Carnitine, and D-Ribose. If you think of glucose (which is converted to D-Ribose) and short chain fatty acids as the fuel of the mito engine - acetyl L-carnitine and Co-enzyme Q10 are the oil and magnesium is the spark plug! The krill oil, Bvitamins, etc. are in a supportive role. The B3 has been known to exacerbate statin side effects; be judicial with that. Statins offer only a moderate anti-inflammatory benefit. Can't you think of anything else that offers you an anti-inflammatory benefit? Astaxanthin, an antioxident, is also recommended. Take the statin at your own risk. Read more of the posts here, and make an educated choice.

Brooks

[traderrob]

My bad, you are correct. I'm taking so many supps I sometimes forget. Taking 100mg coQ10 twice daily.

[traderrob]

BTW, thank you all, the collective knowledge of all you folks on this forum is really impressive and appreciated.

[SusieO]

If you are taking the supplements and walking there is no need for a statin to lower your cholesterol in my opinion. Too low of levels is also not a good thing.

[ronni]

Traderrob, I had blockages in my heart with very good cholesterol readings and my cardiologist put my on Vytorin 10/40 to reduce inflamation. This drug severely depleted my CoQ10 and very nearly destroyed my life. If your are concerned about your cholesterol, I would highly recommend that you have a Berkeley Heart Lab completed. This is a very specialized cholesterol study. Mine came back that my main problem is my genotype (nothing you can do about that) and elevated LpA, an abnormal protein that attaches to the cholesterol. Statins would not even help my problem! They have recommended that I take high doses of niacin (1000 mg.) So far I am reluctant to try the niacin as I am currently being treated for hypothyroidism and want to get that under control before I try anything new. I am taking several anitoxidants including the astaxanthin that Brooks mentioned. Studies show that it very effective in keeping cholesterol from oxidizing which is when cholesterol causes problems. We actually need cholesterol to function properly. With your exercise and dietary regimen, I would say you are in good shape to prevent further blockage without the statins. You have to make up your own mind, but personally I would never touch that poison again.

[traderrob]

I'm getting convinced fast.

Presently I am utilized the Pauling protocol to limit and reduce the effect of LPa (vitamin C, Proline, Lysene) I do take 1g of Krill oil daily which is rich in Astaxanthin.

[gotts1936]

Is possible that some individuals can have high lipid levels without any adverse problems? My history of high lipid levels tells me that unless medical research can develop a test to identify those individuals who will be adversely effected by high levels of Cholestrol, LDL and Trigs, than no one should be prescribed a statin drug.
In 1995, I participated in a health fair put on by my employer. My lipid panel revealed my TC 265, HDL 49, LDL 186 and Trig 149. Every health fair, since, showed the similiar results.
In 2004, I retired, moved to Oregon and my new doctor tested my blood and after a result of TC 258, HDL 55, LDL 169 and Trig 170 said to me " I suggest a statin drug. Being 69 years old, I agreed. Stupid me!
One & 1/2 years later I could hardly walk without extreme pain.. So I decided to research stain drugs. This website and the Annals of Internal Medicine gave me positive direction.
That direction told me to test myself and I did. I screened my carotid arteries, Peripheral arteries ands tested to see if I had any abdominal arotic aneuryisms. All test were in the normal range. The point I am trying to make is that if my high cholestrol levels were not clogging my arteries why was I put a statin drug? Some of us have high lipid levels that are normal for us. GP's should be required to test our arteries for any adverse impact due to high lipid levels prior to prescribing statin drugs. anyone agreed?

[Darrell]

In other words, "Do Cholesterol Drugs Do Any Good?":
*http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/08_04/b4068052092994.htm?chan=t

[traderrob]

I am however, not sure that our host (Dr. Graveline) would agree as per a quote he made on the THINCS forum a few years back:

"Many THINCS members feel that statins have no justification and I must admit there is little research documentation for statin effectiveness on cardiovascular risk reduction. But some studies such as that of Collins do show specific risk reductions in MI's or strokes, which seem to be real and not completely offset by all cause mortality data.

Although I have prescribed more than my share of statins during my last decade of family practice, no longer would use statins for cholesterol or LDL reduction.

Yet if one of you came to me out of concern for your high MI risk status because your brothers and fathers had departed prematurely I would recommend Kilmer's B vitamins in high dose, Peter's Coenzyme Q10, a supplement of omega 3 along with Joel's magnesium and aspirin in the form of Bufferin BUT I would still add a small dose of a hydrophilic statin, such as Pravachol.

I would be most appreciative of any information relevant to the possible effectiveness of low dose statins on cardiovascular risk."

What say you all?