Do exercise & simple activities worsen muscle pain?

[cjbrooksjc]

One thing I haven't seen in this thread is a warning about kidney compromise. Statins tend to put a strain on the kidneys, and although not everyone's kidneys may be adversely affected, I think caution is advisable when attempting any diet that may induce keytosis and overload the kidneys with protein wast products. Carb reduction is OK, but protein intake should be moderate; not high, and LOTS of fruits that are acceptable on the glycemic index (eg cherries) and low carb veggies. Our organs could easily have been injured by these drugs, and we should be cautious about radical solutions of any sort.

Regards,

Brooks

[Biologist]

Hi, Brooks,

The kidney thing is discussed in the book. It appears to be an overblown concern (i.e., "a canard" by detractors). Whether it is of some concern for statin damaged people, I don't know. Possible, I guess, but I was not concern about it.

Have you read the book?

Biologist

[cjbrooksjc]

Biologist: No, Not yet. It's on my list though. But maybe I wasn't clear about my concern: statins are toxic to mitochondria, mitochondria are responsible for cellular waste management, and kidneys responsible for waste removal. As a statin damage sufferer, making a redical change to any part of that cycle makes me a bit nervous. I just think it's a change that should be managed carefully and in moderation. I would be cautious at any rate. Don't get me wrong - I have, in the past, used the Adkins diet to great advantage; it worked like magic. Now, though, I would be more judicious. There is another book; one of Kaplan's I would like to read: Ultra-metabolism; that's on my list too.

[Biologist]

Brooks,

Caution and monitoring always makes sense to me.

I started slowly by cutting the bad carbs (sugar, highly refined flour, etc.) prior to doing much reading on the physiology / bio-chemistry involved. And even this was after six months into my statin damage recovery, while I would have started sooner if I knew then what I know now. At this point I do not view this as a short-range weight loss scheme, but rather has a long-term change in eating habits. The weight loss remains a nice side effect though...

I am will check Amazon reviews on the book you mentioned and may go ahead and get it.

Biologist

[cjbrooksjc]

Biologist: Re: the book I mentioned - I meant Dr. Hyman, not Kaplan, sorry.

Brooks

[pgrimm]

This is a fascinating discussion, but one that has me completely confused. What does Dr. Graveline have to say about diet to recover from statin muscle damage?

[gotts1936]

Pam, so far, I have not read any solution to statin drug muscle damage on this website. If I am wrong, I stand corrected, but up to now, all I have read appears to be about easing the pain not removing it or rebuilding the wasted muscles. Am I incorrect?

[harley2ride]

From my dealings with multiple specialists, it seems that if you have statin injury, and only statin injury (no kidney damage, ms, md, other cellular level damages caused or aggravated by the statins), that when stopping use of the statin, the muscles should recover within months time (varies). Folks with the cellular damage (ms, md, and multiple others), can only ease the pain and slow the progression. As far as exercise, (my statin damage caused Mitochondrial Myopathy (MD)), my doc says I can do MILD exercise, but that if my muscles hurt, I should ease up or stop, because when we feel (us statin damaged folks) muscle pain, it is a sign of more damage, and not the normal pain/rebuilding/increased strenght, kind of thing that occurs for normal people who exercise. That said, I'm no doctor, and I can only say what I remember (which with this memory loss crap is iffy). I recommend that anybody with any statin damage consult a doctor knowledgable with statin injury. Many doctors still don't know jack about statin injuries....

[gotts1936]

harley2ride, thanks for info. My problem is my muscles hurt when I put any stress on them like sitting down, getting up from a chair or walking. I hate to go to a neurologist because they do not seem to be aware of stain drug adverse side effects.

[Biologist]

Thanks, harley2ride.

Is your Mitochondrial Myopathy considered to be "progressive"? That means just what implies? -- that it will continue to get worse rather than better? What is your prognosis? Have you gotten worse over time?

You write: "Mitochondrial Myopathy (MD))" It seems to me the abbreviation should be "MM," is it actually "MD"?

Thanks again.

___________

Brooks, you mentioned kidney compromise as a potential concern. The following link may be instructive:

*http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/saturated-fat/is-there-a-single-save-your-heart-diet/#more-1199

It was added by Dr. Eades to his blog yesterday (It may be partly for us, I suspect he reads this forum from time to time). I recommend reading the study that is hyperlinked and also watching the hyperlinked video.

Now, the question may remain: "Are statin victims already kidney compromised?" such that this factor should be taken into consideration. Perhaps. But if the kidney is like the liver, there should be significant improvement over time off statins for most people. If someone wants to try a low carb diet then perhaps waiting until they feel comfortable about their kidney function may make sense. On the other hand, such a diet may be just the right thing to effect a quicker cure? Again, caution and monitoring may be the order of the day. But I will repeat, if I knew then what I know now, I would have started sooner on a low carb diet. Getting the kidneys checked out may be a way to go. But I would find a more honest nephrologist than the one who appears in the video. Here's what I think about her:

For those who may be interested in my opinion on the video speaker, I think she is not only full of it, I believe that she knows it. To make this clearer: I don't believe she is merely wrong, I believe she is lying. Deception. Being "full of it" is what got her the speaking engagement. She is just playing the game for money and status among her peers, in my opinion. She is getting a pat on the back and a check for her purse. I believe she is also lying about the effects of sodium in the diet, not merely wrong. She knows better. She certainly is not stupid, which would be the only other explanation for her statements, therefore, in my opinion, she is lying. That's my best guess.

Biologist

[gotts1936]

I am sorry, but I get upset reading about diets. I have reached 71 years old without following any diets. I was healthy until taking a statin drug for a moderate high cholesterol level. Obviously, my diet worked for me and lovastatin destroyed it. I do not trust anyone who tells me a diet will correct my statin induced problems. OK, I have vented, but I am pissed off and unfortunately, there are some individuals on these website who appear to push the drug companies solution which is adopt a new diet. BS!, BS!, BS!.

[cjbrooksjc]

Biologist: Great post; esp the Swedish paper. I did not waste my time w/ the film. You know I'm only saying (as a potential result of statin effects) one must be moderate with a low carb diet. Some people feel a low carb diet is an excuse to eat nothing but steak and lobster and drink nothing but vodka martinis. Actually that was my approach 30 yrs ago when I first tried the Adkins diet, and yes, I ended up drunk, obdurate, and skinny. I just feel folks should watch for indicators: cloudy urine, etc. and use keytone stix when they start the diet to measure the urine keytone levels for a while. But, you sold me. I'm going to be more careful about carbs; esp refined ones. GREAT link and paper!

Kind regards,

Brooks

[gotts1936]

Brooks, I almost went on the Adkins diet a couple of times and I am glad I did not because I would not want to end up drunk, obdurate or skinny. I was raised on a meat diet, with a few carbs thrown in for good measure, and it took care of me for 71 years, I will take your recommendation to test for keytone in the urine. Thanks.

[Biologist]

In this thread, pgrimm asks the following:

"This is a fascinating discussion, but one that has me
completely confused. What does Dr. Graveline have to
say about diet to recover from statin muscle damage?"
--pgrimm

While not specifically on statin damage recovery, Dr. Graveline writes the following on diet and heart health. My only concern might be about the dairy products recommended by both he and Dr. McCully. (I've read both their major books and recommend both, BTW.) If you have access to a traditional farm, that's one thing, but now days milk products just aren't what they use to be with hormones and antibiotics (and other stuff?) now added to the mix. I currently drink soy milk while I'm sure its is PACKED with simple sugar (i.e., bad carbs). I eat plenty of butter, though. Darrell's diet may not be far off from what is recommended here. Mine is a little less in the carbohydrate department -- and no simple carbs at all except for the soy milk. I do eat a lot of fresh fruits and vegetables though (local farmer's market and Sam's Club).

http://spacedoc.net/heart_disease_carbohydrate.htm

http://spacedoc.net/mccully.htm

Biologist

[harley2ride]

[quote="gotts1936"]harley2ride, thanks for info. My problem is my muscles hurt when I put any stress on them like sitting down, getting up from a chair or walking. I hate to go to a neurologist because they do not seem to be aware of stain drug adverse side effects.[/quote]

I can tell you that I was that bad, if not worse, before I was put on all the stuff I'm taking. It helped for quite awhile, but it seems I have to keep upping the dosages after 4 - 6 months. Can't see how that is going to keep working, as after awhile, what I'm taking will start doing worse things than what I have, due to the extremely high dosages I would have to take. But remember, I'm not just a statin myopathy. Mine expanded to Mitochondrial Myopathy, which is a form of Muscular Distrophy.

[harley2ride]

[quote="Biologist"]Thanks, harley2ride.

Is your Mitochondrial Myopathy considered to be "progressive"? That means just what implies? -- that it will continue to get worse rather than better? What is your prognosis? Have you gotten worse over time?

You write: "Mitochondrial Myopathy (MD))" It seems to me the abbreviation should be "MM," is it actually "MD"?

Thanks again.

___________

Brooks, you mentioned kidney compromise as a potential concern. The following link may be instructive:

*http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/saturated-fat/is-there-a-single-save-your-heart-diet/#more-1199

It was added by Dr. Eades to his blog yesterday (It may be partly for us, I suspect he reads this forum from time to time). I recommend reading the study that is hyperlinked and also watching the hyperlinked video.

Now, the question may remain: "Are statin victims already kidney compromised?" such that this factor should be taken into consideration. Perhaps. But if the kidney is like the liver, there should be significant improvement over time off statins for most people. If someone wants to try a low carb diet then perhaps waiting until they feel comfortable about their kidney function may make sense. On the other hand, such a diet may be just the right thing to effect a quicker cure? Again, caution and monitoring may be the order of the day. But I will repeat, if I knew then what I know now, I would have started sooner on a low carb diet. Getting the kidneys checked out may be a way to go. But I would find a more honest nephrologist than the one who appears in the video. Here's what I think about her:

For those who may be interested in my opinion on the video speaker, I think she is not only full of it, I believe that she knows it. To make this clearer: I don't believe she is merely wrong, I believe she is lying. Deception. Being "full of it" is what got her the speaking engagement. She is just playing the game for money and status among her peers, in my opinion. She is getting a pat on the back and a check for her purse. I believe she is also lying about the effects of sodium in the diet, not merely wrong. She knows better. She certainly is not stupid, which would be the only other explanation for her statements, therefore, in my opinion, she is lying. That's my best guess.

Biologist[/quote]

Hey Biologist...
According to my MDA Doc. mine is progressive, but he can't say how fast. It is Mitochondrial Myopathy, and he does say it is a form of Muscular Distrophy, and I gather that there are different types of it. My doc admits that he doesn't know my exact type, and that even if he did tens of thousands of dollars more of testing, he might not be absolutely certain. He also said that it really doesn't make a lot of difference with my meds and outcome... I've been under the MDA for over a year now.

[Biologist]

harley2ride,

I would recommend that you read the book I recommend in the following linked thread and watch that thread for a few weeks or months. I may do some significant posting there. BTW, testing is confidential, quick and accurate with saliva tests through the mail to innumerable labs. The major online supplement companies sell the test kits. And testosterone is dirt cheap (which is partly why we hear so little about it). There are some caveats though which I will discuss when I get a chance. Appreciating most of what I write will largely be contingent on people having read the book. I will avoid "reteaching" what the book does such a good job of doing. I will add to it partly from experience -- others don't have to make some of the mistakes that I have. There are new developments since the book came out. Statins are listed in the book as one of the means of ruining one's testosterone levels, and that leads to many problems. Illness does the same thing. I would imagine your levels are shot. You are clearly in a state of catabolism, you need anabolism instead. Also, your drug routine, which you maybe looking at cycling back into every year or so, eats up your bones. Testosterone fixes that. More later.

Congratulations on quiting smoking -- if you can do that, you can do anything.

http://www.spacedoc.net/board/viewtopic.php?p=7245#7245

Biologist