Experience with very low doses?

[prof]

I am new to Lipitor, and wary, but I have decided to try it at very low doses, vigilance, and supplementation with at least 240 mg. of CoQ10 per day. Low means 2.5 mg per day; I break a 10 into four pieces.

Based on "home tests" (not very reliable but something) even this small a dose has lowered my TCL substantially. I am aware of the relative meaninglessness of that number, but it is at least an indicator that this small amount of Lipitor can be quite effective by its own standards. I also take it at night, on an empty stomach. Since the label notes that a large percentage of the drug is reduced in plasma when taken with meals (but no loss of "efficacy") I drew the conclusion that a lesser amount might be equally effetive if taken on an empty stomach.

Anyone else try very low dosing?

prof

[SusieO]

I had lowered my 10 mgs to 5 and still had problems. I hope the 2.5 works for you!

[prof]

thanks, Susie. Perhaps someone can tell us how strong is the science we have re: the relationship between dosing and adverses. From what I've read, some correlation is suggested (as we'd expect), but I wonder how robust the evidence is. And, of course, there will always be a wide range of individual sensitivities, etc.

I am most specifically concerned about neuropathy since I already have some compromised nerves as a result of lower spine problems. Last thing I need/want is worsening of nerve function there. So I also wonder whether there is any evidence that already compromised nerves may be more "vulnerable," as would seem logical.

prof

[JIMNSC]

Hello Prof Curious...... have you satisfied yourself you get sufficient exercise and are on a good eating regimen? Is this prescription a reult of all the above failing to lower your cholesterol? How high was it prior to starting Lipitor?

Jim

[prof]

Hi Jim--I think I covered the bases. I do an hour (solid hour) of aerobic treadmill every day. I am on a low-fat, low carb (but not extremely low) diet. I have tried Policosonal 20 mg for a few months, as well as plant sterols/stanols, B vits, lots of garlic, fish oil, and so on. Nevertheless, my ratio kept going up (to just over 6) and I seem to have congenitally high triglycerides, despite exercise, etc..

My "risk factors" include being a male in late 50's, having a mother and first-degree uncle (her brother) who had MIs in their 50s, the ratio, and the TGs. BP is OK, but not super. Nonetheless, I am aware (very aware) that statins have not shown a health benefit overall for primary prevention, almost certainly because of the bad things they do along with whatever good they do. Thus, I am trying a "minimalist" approach to get the ratio a bit better, increasing exercise even further, and so on. (I've also been watching homocysteine, which I've had a hard time getting below 9.0 despite the usual supplements at the "right" levels.) My main goal is to increae HDL which I know statins won't do. But even getting ratio back to around 4 won't require enormous change in total. If I can do that with minimal statin use, and monitor things closely, it seemed worth a trial.

BTW, it is, indeed, a trial. No matter what the result, I do not expect to be on even a minimal dose beyond a year or so. By then, I am hoping that increased exercise, further weight loss, and a more effective combination of alternatives will put me in a position to get off. So it is a bridge put up temporarily while I get to that point.

prof

[JIMNSC]

Hey - sounds like you have a plan! Good luck and keep us posted if you would.

Jim

[SusieO]

I haven't had my numbers checked for over six months now. My triglyceriedes were over 400! YIKES

I have problems with doing much exercising due to LIPITOR - so I can only get in a few laps of walking around my pool and I am done for.

One thing I needed to do and have done is get on a better eating plan; I was a true carb-a-holic if there ever was one! At the end of September I began eating the Nutri System meal plan with the low glycemic index and to date I have taken off 14 pounds and have about 10 more to get to my goal weight.

I feel quite positive this has to be helping my levels because I am eating so much better. I will get my levels tested once I reach my goal.

[prof]

Good luck, Susie. One absolute criterion for me is that, if this mini-dose Lipitor shows even the slightest sign of reducing my exercise tolerance, I'm off of it. Pronto. There is no question that regular exercise is an enormously more important factor in risk reduction for virtually everyone. That's been shown definitively.

I'll keep people updated. I did another one of those home tests, and it is actually scaring me. According to it, my 2.5 mg. has me down to 130 TCL (I started at 265). I think that is dangerously low; I think I must be hypersensitive to this stuff, which is also not good. This Monday I'll get a "real test" and see if it matches the home results. If so, it may be time to go off entirely or try 1 mg.! (or maybe less of weaker statin and/or back to supplements and diet alone).

prof

[sos_group_owner]

Hi Prof,

I wanted to comment on three things you mentioned in one of your posts.

Re: low-fat, low carb (but not extremely low) diet.

Our body needs fat and saturated fat is NOT bad.
Even the AHA says that we can consume up to 30% dietary fat daily. They do recommend <10% of saturated fat, but there is some controversy as to the negative affects of saturated fat.
Sally Fallon and Mary Enig have written several books on the subject:
ww.coconutoil.com/saturated_fats.htm

The low fat - low cholesterol diet is counter-productive. Our bodies need both.
Transfat is the bad guy.
Some of the oils we use actually become transfats when we cook with them. Most stable oils for cooking are extra virgin olive oil and coconut oil.

Re: I seem to have congenitally high triglycerides, despite exercise, etc...

The white foods, especially sugar, send triglycerides soaring. White food list: sugar, white flour, pasta, rice, potato. Replace with complex carbs, such as sweet potato, whole grains, brown/wild rice.

My husbands trigs were 300. In 3 months he lowered his trigs to 150 by cutting way back on simple carbs AND taking 1,000 mg of cinnamon daily. Cinnamon is available in 500mg capsules. Cinnamon also lowers LDL cholesterol and controls blood sugar, especially good for diabetics.

Re: (I've also been watching homocysteine, which I've had a hard time getting below 9.0 despite the usual supplements at the "right" levels.)

Homocysteine is a toxic amino acid that is a by-product of protein metabolism. There is no safe level of homocysteine, but optimal levels should be <6.2. For every 3 points above 6.3, there is a 35% increased risk of heart attack. It's also important to note that taking high doses of niacin causes elevated homocysteine.

Some can lower their homocysteine by taking the B vitamins, especially folic acid, B6 and B12... BUT some also need TMG (Betaine) and zinc to work with the B's.

Fran

[prof]

Thanks, Fran. I'll definitely give the cinnamon a try! Otherwise, I think the only white thing I eat is cottage cheese! And I am using TMG and zinc as well as the Bs for Trigs.

I do seem to "crave" protein--in the form of turkey, cottage cheese, salmon, so generally "good stuff." But maybe that's why the homocysteine is still stuck at 9.

prof

[prof]

For anyone interested in the rest of this story, I have included it in the thread "Statins and auto-immune (lupus like) illnesses."

It turns out that even 17 days on 5gm Lipitor caused significant adverse reactions for me. I have had improvement since stopping the drug, but not back to "baseline."

prof