A statin drug for what?

[catamaran]

Before embarking on the treacherous journey into statin therapy to reduce "cholesterol" and supposedly preventing heart disease, give this book a read:

ww.livonlabs.com/cgi-bin/htmlos.cgi/LV/apps/stop-americas-killer.html?src=VCF-STOP

Space Doc has given us invaluable information about statins and the reasons to stay far, far away from them; Dr. Levy gives us the logical alternative to statin therapy.

Every day the late Dr. Linus Pauling's advocacy of vitamin C as the key to good health is vindicated.

BTW: I have no vested interest in the above-mentioned publication, I have no part in its creation, nor do I know personally its author and I receive no remuneration of any sort from its sales.

[Darrell]

Vitamin C seems to be a religion to some people. Unfortunately, scientific studies don't support their level of faith. Even Pauling had to retract some of his statements after discovering that a co-author of some of his studies had taken liberties with the data. Can you point us to some scientific studies in peer-reviewed journals, instead of a book for sale?

[catamaran]

I guess the best place to start would be this site:

ww.vitamincfoundation.org/

The links go on forever. You can judge for yourself.

You might take a look at the "expert" section, under "Klenner". If what Dr. Klenner had done with vitamin C, ascorbic acid, doesn't impress you, nothing will.

I don't consider advocacy of "megadose" vitamin C as a religious event. I supplement with five doses per day of 2 grams coupled with some other supplements and I have for the last four years. During that period the progression of atheromatous plaques in my arteries has been completely arrested, this verified by subsequent ultasonograms by skilled medical technicians with the results confirmed by a pathologist.

[stina]

catamaran hello, Could it be that your other supplements contributed to the arrested progression of plaques in your arteries? What other supplements do you take? There was an hour long tv program in Sweden last year about Dr Pauling and his theory regarding vitamin C and the conclusion was that his theories was very much on the optimistic side and not proven. There might of course be other reasearch that proves otherwise. Also sites that promotes and selling books and vitamines have vested interests and might not be completely unbiased. This is not saying that Levys theory is not right it is only a comment. I do think however that the theory that plaque builds up to protect the arteries from damage like scab does when you cut yourself is feasable. That sounds locical to me.

[catamaran]

G'day stina,
First off, I don't know of any clinical tests of the efficacy of vitamin C (VC) supplementation sponsored and run by contemporary medical authorities that were not designed to fail. The tests by Swedish authorities that you mention may be the same one I saw last year; the tests utilised only 500mg of vitamin C per day and even at that miniscule dose some positive effects were realised.

The application of VC is dose dependent. Dr. Klenner complained that in all those cases where VC therapy appeared to fail, the dose was entirely too small. Hickey and Roberts point out that the half life of serum ascorbate in the blood is less than half an hour implying that a continuous intake of VC is necessary to obtain a positive response.

For the last four years I have supplemented with 10,000mg of VC, five 2000mg doses over the course of the day from breakfast to bedtime. Along with the VC I take 3000mg of L-lysine, 3000mg of fish oil, 1200IU of vitamin E, a multi-vitamin and 6mg of lutein.

When I embarked on this supplement journey I underwent the first ultrasonogram to determine the baseline deposits of atherosclerotic lesions in my carotids and abdominal aorta. Extremity blood pressure measurements were recorded as well. Subsequent ultrasonograms have revealed no increase in the volume of plaque and the intima of my carotid arteries has increased in thickness with no loss of elasticity or decrease in the area of the lumen. Blood pressure measurements remain unchanged. Concurrently, a developing cataract in my left eye diagnosed in 2001 has not progressed in opacity.

The attending medical technician taking the various measurements was surprised by the outcome of the subsequent tests remarking that he usually saw about a 10% increase in plaque volume per annum for patients in my age bracket, 72 years. The increased thickness of the intima of my carotids was particularly surprising.

I hope this has been enlightening to you....and, yes, the VCfoundation site is an excellent place to start.

FYI: My normal blood lipid level (total "cholesterol") runs 290 to 324.

To your health, C.

[Darrell]

"...I don't know of any clinical tests of the efficacy of vitamin C (VC) supplementation sponsored and run by contemporary medical authorities that were not designed to fail..."

"...in all those cases where VC therapy appeared to fail, the dose was entirely too small..."

This sounds logical until you recognize that Pauling's Vitamin C establishment and legacy have had over 30 years to do high-dose peer-reviewed scientific studies and mainstream scientific publishing and they have almost nothing to offer. There are excellent reasons for double-blind studies and peer-reviews, and the Vitamin C high priests are ducking those issues while they get rich selling books and seminars to laymen.

I have no doubt that there are good uses for Vitamin C, but I'm tired of all this mega-dose "cure all" hype that started with Pauling and is still reverberating just below good science over 30 years later. Vitamin C advocates appear to be avoiding well-designed, double-blind, peer-reviewed studies.

Speaking of designed to fail, I suspect that a lot of people who try to ingest 10,000 mg per day long-term will end up with ulcers and heartburn for it. But of course it's too late to get a refund on the book by then, and no one's keeping score on long-term compliance.

If you are really open to knowing the history of all this, read this article for balance to the advocates:
ww.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/pauling.html

[catamaran]

Quackwatchers is an excellent source of disinformation.

It's quite obvious that there is much prejudice afoot about the efficacy of vitamin C as it relates to one's health, so with that in mind I will no longer waste my time responding to the challenges.

My opinion about vitamin C is based on four years of research and my own personal experiences with it use. What is promised by its use I have received. If that is too much for anyone to believe, so be it.

[Darrell]

The nice thing about QuackWatch is that it presents facts that can be independently verified and even provides quite a few citations for reference.

I look forward to a day when Vitamin C advocates can point us to science instead of testimonials. They seem to have lots of money for "institutes" and "foundations," but not for high-dose double-blind peer-reviewed scientific studies.

[stina]

catamaran hello. I am really pleased for you that things have worked out for you and your health seems to be in very good shape also thanks for all the information. It is very interesting to read reports and research of various studies. There will always be conflict of interest and fear of losing face in all of these. I am right, you are wrong and I will prove it scenario. I think there will always be cures that will help some and not others to the same degree, that does not mean that they should be dissmissed altogether. We are , after all , different and our body makeup is different so it seems to me logical that we need different things to heal and improve on whatever condition we have ( so how come that we all have to have a total cholesterol of 200 or under)! I am trying desperately to find out what the real answers are regarding cholesterol, which it seems almost impossible to find, maybe beacause nobody really knows the answers. There is so much hype, investments etc about this so it is very difficult to find an unbiased research into this. Maybe I have missed it! However, I have decide to stop taking my stains, Zocor, and I must say feel much better for it. Whether this is the right decision or not, I don´t know. My only "problem" is elevated cholesterol and I feel if I eat healthily there should not be a problem?!?! I am feeling more strongly that infection is the primary cause of heart desease, not cholesterol. Confused :roll: :roll:

[catamaran]

G'day stina,

I have received Dr. Levy's book. It is very well researched with references to studies of vitamin C and its effects on the vascular system going back to early in the last century. I am confident that the book can be used as a good treatise on the ways to prevent, stay or reverse the conditions that result in heart disease.

[stina]

Hello catamaran, I will have a look at it. Sounds interesting. Thanks.

[slacckk]

[http://www.canlyme.com/quackwatch.html]


Dr. Stephen Barrett of Quackwatch Exposed In Court Cases
At trial, under a heated cross-examination by Negrete, Barrett conceded that he was not a Medical Board Certified psychiatrist because he had failed the certification exam.

This was a major revelation since Barrett had provided supposed expert testimony as a psychiatrist and had testified in numerous court cases. Barrett also had said that he was a legal expert even though he had no formal legal training.

The most damning testimony before the jury, under the intense cross-examination by Negrete, was that Barrett had filed similar defamation lawsuits against almost 40 people across the country within the past few years and had not won one single one at trial.

During the course of his examination, Barrett also had to concede his ties to the AMA, Federal Trade Commission (FTC) and Food & Drug Administration (FDA).

[Darrell]

Quackwatch nonetheless provides a wealth of information that has to be considered. The fact that Barrett is not board-certified in psychiatry is irrelevant. Furthermore, expert witnesses do not require any legal training. They are expert in some field other than law -- that's why they're brought in.

[slacckk]

[quote="Darrell"]Quackwatch nonetheless provides a wealth of information that has to be considered. The fact that Barrett is not board-certified in psychiatry is irrelevant. Furthermore, expert witnesses do not require any legal training. They are expert in some field other than law -- that's why they're brought in.[/quote]



A "critics" view of the critic. He sounds like a man withan agenda to me.

That said, Quackwatch has done some good work.