What are the true facts?

[stina]

Hello everyone, Just joined this lovely group of people. I am SO confused about the whole question about cholesterol. Three years ago I went to have my cholesterol levels checked, as one is supposed to do these days :wink: Next day my doctor phoned to say my cholesterol was sky high, a bit over 300, and I must start taking statins at once. He then told me that unless I took them it would just be a matter of time before I had a heart attack! Well, that night after taking my first dose of Zocor 20mg, I woke up feeling I could not move properly and the feeling of warm water rushing through my body. I got so worried about this and obviously thought my doctor was right and here was the heart attack looming over the horizon. He said I must go on taking them. For at least two years I was so worried about the whole thing and started to have panic attacks nearly every day. I started to feel really old and felt life was just running out. About six months ago I started to read about the effects of statins and have now come to the conclusion that I don´t want to take them any longer, so I have stopped. Must say I feel relieved, but at the same time that little niggling question, have I done the right thing. With Zocor 10mg my total cholesterol was kept around 215 - 230. Now after stopping it is up to 258. My question really is does high cholesterol matter? Some articles tells you that high cholesterol is nothing to worry about and in the same breath gives you tips how to lower it :roll: What are the ideal numbers ,if there is such a thing, and who is deciding what is? Any ideas?

[CatMom]

Hi stina, I am no expert on any of this and I am recently off the stuff myself and frankly, I am NOT going to worry about the numbers anymore. If mine get 300 or above, I will watch even more carefully what I eat and up my fish oil that I am taking but I am NOT going to panic at the numbers... I don't think anything could panic me any worse than the forgetfullness and the confusion..... I just don't see what good low cholesterol is when you have lost quality of life to get it.

[bunnylady]

Ditto what Cat Mom said- I would rather have 5 healthy years than 20 years living as I am- anyone want to trade!

Also Catmom- get your heart monitored regulary- it will ease your anxiety if you know yours hearts good- mine is fine!

[shawk]

I would also suggest for extra peace of mind a new painless procdure that is out now. My insurance compnay is having a fit but they paid for it.

It is a ultra sound for your cartiod and cardiac arteries. This painless procedure will tell you how thick your arteries are and if they are blocked or not.

Since my triglycerides are so high I scheduled myself for this test. They say that the cartoids are the first arteries that will start to get clogged.

I do agree with Patty (bunnyady) having them check your heart ios a great peace maker....I know I felt much better after seeing the cardiologist....

Be very careful though some GP's may or may not like what the cardio DOC said, I know mine was very indifferent, even though thye cardio DOC said the results were very good.

On the cardio test the best test to have is the stress test....the better is called a dual isotope test....They give a very small amount of radioactive medicine(I think it is a dye) then you do the treadmill stress test...and then you lay under a Xray type machine...and it takes pictures.

The dual isotope shows the cardio DOC a better view(360 degrees) and he is able to see how much blood flow is going into the arteries....

My cardio doc said I did very well on this and did not need to worry about the heart, which did lift me from a very serious depression....this test does not check the cartiod arteries though....

I believe(I could be wrong) that if you fail the regular stress test for any reason they suggest very highly you take the dual isotope....

Failing the first test happens to lots of folks, I failed my first test and my mood really wnet south fast...as it turned out I failed the first test and they called it a false-positive....the dual isotope test proved I had no immediate or stand out cardiac issues.

And it does wonder for your physche to know the heart is OK.

[stina]

Thanks to you all for your support and advice. It really is appreciated. It is very comforting to be able to share fears and experiences with others. Sometimes you feel that you are the only one that feel uncomfortable and confused. I think some doctors really have to get the facts right, as far it is possible, before putting the fear of God in you and tell you that you absolutely must take statins or else face the consequences. The only "problem" I had was high cholesterol, everything else was fine!
The pharmacuticals and the food industry is really raking it in now advocating cholesterol at 200 or lower. ( wonder when they will put it down to 180 ) Yoghurt, margarines, statins galore. No wonder people are starting to feel unwell. :evil:

[sos_group_owner]

Hi Stina,

Re: The pharmacuticals and the food industry is really raking it in now
advocating cholesterol at 200 or lower. (wonder when they will put it
down to 180)

It already is (lower) for high risk patients.
* LDL goal of less than 70 mg/dL (as opposed to <100 mg/dL)
As far as "they" are concerned, the lower the better.

Even those with normal cholesterol levels (especially diabetics) are
prescribed statins as "preventive" measures. Main problem with this
theory is that diabetics are already prone to peripheral neuropathy,
one of the common adverse effects associated with statins.

Fran

[stina]

Hi Fran - How do "they" arrive at these figures one wonders. Surely there must be a point where you can´t go any lower? I can understand that people with serious medical problems and advanced CHD should be treated in different ways. People with no medical problems apart from elevated cholesterol is another matter. It would be very interesting to know how many people really have values at or under 200. I think very few. No wonder drug companys are pushing for lower numbers. To rake in even more money, statins are now available over the counter, so people with no risk factors at all are going to expose themselves to these risks. Preventative medicine they call it HAH! They really are turning healthy people into patients. What a victory for them. Hopefully it won´t be too long until enough true and unbiased reports will be widely published and once and for all the scaremongering storys will be put to rest. After all without cholesterol we would all be dead!

[Lucyfur]

I took Lipitor for a few years. I felt lousy but am not sure it was due to Lipitor. Went to a rheumatologist re: fibromyalgia and he suggested I stop the lipitor for a few months to see if the pain subsided. It didn't. I also have labile blood pressure--it goes up and down, seemingly without regard to rest, stress, exercise. I actually got one of my lowest readings when I was very upset and crying.

My doctor now has me on Vitorin, Triamterene (diuretic), Potassium (because of the diuretic), and Norvasc (calcium channel blocker--best according to ASCOT study) for high blood pressure. My BP has gone as high as 210/105. The blood pressure combined with the high cholesterol makes me a "walking time bomb" at risk for a massive stroke at any time but I probably wouldn't die, I'd just be a drooling cripple, unable to talk, walk or use one side of my body. So, if I avoid that, he says I am a prime candidate for a heart attack. Do you think homeland security can screen for walking time bombs or can I still fly on airplanes?

I hate those horsepill supplements. They are too big to swallow and I want some scientific evidence on what each one treats and how effective they are and an informed dosage. The supplement manufacturers are making a mint, just like the drug companies. They make incredible claimes, the prices are outrageous and the high dosages may be dangerous. I get just a little worried when I read the label and it says the pill contains 10,000 times the recommended daily dosage.

I know the drug companies influence which drugs get tested and I know their repugnanat marketing ploys but can someone direct me to REAL double blind, large studies over long time (like ASCOT) that does more than make claims for CoQ10, vitamin E, etc. It seems like I can either follow the doctor's advice, do my own research on my meds but I really CANNOT do research on supplements--all I can find are true believers.

Looking for a middle ground

[shawk]

Lucyfur(cute name )

"but I really CANNOT do research on supplements--all I can find are true believers. "

Without sounding rude maybe you should DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH...start by reading everything on this forum and this web-site.

There are supplements that have HEALING POWER not TREATING POWER like many drugs do...Statin drugs do not lower your cholestrol all they do is reduce the inflammation in your blood vessels.

You are playing devils or in this case lucyfur's advocate.... if you CANNOT do research on supplemnets than be happy and keep taking the dangerous drugs....It starts with your own research.....

The FDA, pharmacons and food industry have our medical community blinded to HEALING and prefer our Doctors to TREAT the symptoms....

True healing is up to you, this web-site has provided me valuable insight and so have other web-sites, but I had to reasearch myself, not just take someones word for it...

For Example:

I was on 3 different meds that cause abnormal liver readings and also cause liver enzymes to sky rocket...a DOC told me I had possible Liver cancer....

By doing my own reasearch and then taking a more holistic and natural appraoch I discovered the supplement Chlorella and 16 oz of fresh juiced carrots taken daily would clenase my liver....

I bulked up on the Chlorella and the carrot juice I had my blood re-tested and my enzymes are now under control and I do not have liver cancer or any form cirrhosis or drug induced hepatitis...

See I did my own research, backed it up with advice from a holistic practisioner and HEALED my condition not simply treated it....

For the record Japanese Doctors have found that Chlorella does in fact cleanse the bloodstream and bowels, which reduces Chloestrol levels...NATURALLY....

Here is another tid bit just for you...

Laboratory experiments have shown that regular use of chlorella reduces high blood pressure and prevents strokes in rats....

start googling and take control of your own life...you have to fight very hard for great health care and Doctors cannot hide behind things anymore....


I am not trying to come across harsh to you, but your initial post seems to be attacking claims made here....

Until you perform your own research and truly discover the lies the FDA, pharamacons, food industry are spreading...you will never know the power of HEALING Vs. TREATING....

I do understand your views...I allowed an MD to scare me big time...NO MORE!!!.....There are essential oils, minerals and supplements despite your claims that HEAL your body....WHY?

Your body needs them and produces them...the drugs simply override your body, hinder the prodcution of certain things like CQ10 enezyme(which BTW has been proven by numerous MD's, including our very own spacedoc, and FWIW is recognized by the pharmacons themselves, who NOW are telling DR's to tell patients to take CQ10 if they put a patient on any statin therapy) Or worse certain drugs stop your body from producing what it needs to begin with....



Get busy living and healing or get busy staying afraid and dying!!!

But do not come on this board and state you simply CANNOT do your own research....simply put lucyfur....either take control of your life or stop bashing what you refuse to research or find out on your own!

[/quote]

[CatMom]

AMEN Shawk, you said it all so well but I would like to add my own thoughts and experience here too..

I don't need any research to tell me how much better I feel OFF of the statin drugs and on the supplements. The supplements have been around far longer than statin drugs and I think have already proved themself.... who trusts research anyway... the pharmacons did their research and as a result of it, they have pushed their poisin using scare tactics to the world for their own greed, making people sicker to line their own pockets.

I would also love to add the BONUS effect I have discovered on the supplements. I have has IBS for 40 years. Fourty years of not being able to eat anything RAW, no beans, no greens, no roughage of ANY kind. The bonus effect is that I can now eat those things... things I haven't been able to eat in 40 years. For the first time in my life, I had a taco salad since I have been on these supplements. I have NOT had to take the Rx medicine for my colon since I have been on the supplements. In fact, I have NOT had to take ANY Rx drugs since I got off the lipitor and on the supplements.

Add that to how much better I feel, no more pain in the knees, no more confusion/memory loss, far more energy, no more indigestion, just a LONG list of stuff that has left my life... I don't NEED anymore studies than that. I have gone from being close to disabled to normal... that is all the proof I need.

"a "walking time bomb" at risk for a massive stroke at any time "

Check out Crestors own web sight and see where they say it has NOT been proven to prevent heart attacks or strokes. It is only a matter of time before the rest of them also cover their butts and add the same thing to their material.

[stina]

Hello there, I feel I have to stick up for lucyfur a bit. It is incredibly difficult to get answers that you truly can trust and be sure that they are not written and researched by someone with vested interests.Both the drug companies and the health food manufacures can be as bad as each others when it comes to profit and big promises. The doctors have not the time to do any research themselves and just take the recommendations that the drug companies give them. Not two people are the same, so it really puzzles me how everybody should receive the same treatment regarding cholesterol.Anyway at the end of the day, does it matter what numbers you have? There is such a hype and scaremongerings so many people get absolutely obsessed about getting their cholesterol down, me included, until I have now taken myself off statins and really feel much better. I have read so many reports on so many web sites and they all contradict each other. All I can say for myself is that I am not happy taking statins that will affect my liver and muscles. I go with the theory that the problems is not cholesterol itself but when it gets oxidized that causes problems. It makes sense to me, wheter that is right or not I don´t know, but I will keep on reading to try and find out more. :roll:

[sos_group_owner]

Hi Stina & Forum,

You're correct, it's when LDL becomes oxidized that causes trouble.
Excerpt from an article by Dr Malcolm Kendrick:

LDL (Oxidised LDL)

" This is a complex pathway. When platelets start to stick together,
they release free radicals. "Free radicals" oxidise LDL. Oxidised LDL
is a powerful blood clotting factor. LDL is also incorporated into the
blood clot as it forms, and provides a `lipid' surface (along with
VLDL) for the construction of fibrin. Fibrin is the hugely strong
protein strand that binds a clot together and makes it `tough.' "

When you get a chance, read the complete article titled,
"Is Heart Disease All Due to Blood Clots?"
[url]http://www.thincs.org/Malcolm.htm#clots[url]

Things that create "free radicals" and oxidized LDL... Smoking, high
blood sugar levels (diabetes), stress... Risk factors that damage the
"endothelium" include elevated levels of homocysteine, blood sugar,
insulin, cortisol (stress hormones), triglycerides, smoking and
deficiency in some vitamins, such as C and the B's.

The easiest way for me to explain oxidized LDL... is, our bodies reaction
to inflammation. When we cut our finger, our body reacts by clotting
(the cut) so we don't bleed to death. Well, this is the same thing that
happens when LDL becomes oxidized from any of the above factors.
Damage to the "endothelium" (A layer of cells that lines blood vessels)
is our body reacting to inflammation.

Excellent article all about "Lipoproteins" :
[url]http://www.thincs.org/Malcolm.htm#lipoprotein[url]

Excellent article all about "fats" and the flawed lipid hypothesis
"The Skinny on Fats" by Mary Enig, PhD:
[url]http://www.westonaprice.org/knowyourfats/skinny.html[url]

Fran

[stina]

Hi Fran, Yes, that sounds logical to me. In your opinion, would you say that wheter you have high or low cholesterol is of little significance if the LDL gets oxidised? So in fact having high cholesterol ( whatever high is :roll: ) is nothing that we should worry too much about, but make sure that we live healthily with good nutrition etc Would you agree?

[shawk]

Stina,

I would agree, based on my wife and her side of the family...All of them have very hi Cholestrol...my Mom-in law is over 350, yet she has no oxidized Chol and none of her arteries are clogged, all of them are clear...

I also know that exercise(which is different than simply being active) is as important as diet and lifestyle changes...

[sos_group_owner]

Hi Stina,

Q) "would you say that whether you have high or low cholesterol is of little significance if the LDL gets oxidised?"
A) Correct. Over half the people that have heart attacks and strokes have normal or low total cholesterol levels.

Q) "So in fact having high cholesterol is nothing that we should worry too much about"
A) Elevated triglycerides need to be controlled as, when elevated, high trig's are one of the factors that contribute to oxidized LDL.

"Good nutrition" is: fresh fruits and vegetables, whole grains, eggs (yes, the whole egg), protein from all sources, healthy saturated fat (coconut oil and butter), also cold pressed extra virgin olive oil (primarily omega 9 - Oleic Acid, with some omega 6 and very little omega3).

Good Nutrition is NOT the "low fat - low cholesterol" diet that is usually "high carb". Lack of saturated fat can cause low HDL and too many carbs (especially the white foods) cause elevated triglycerides.

Avoid (like the plague) man-made transfats - anything hydrogenated or partially hydrogenated.

Fran

[stina]

Hi Fran and Shawk, Thanks you so much for your replies. Shawk is you Mom on a certain diet and does she take any supplements? Very reassuring to hear that some with high cholesterol has got clear arteries. Just goes to show some of the hype that goeas round. Honestly, "they" really know how to distort things and making you panic. Thanks Fran for mentioning about the trigycerides. When people talk about oxidised LDL they never tells you how it does get oxidised and how to avoid it, so thanks for that, My triglycerides are usually between 60-90, so after what you have said, makes me feel better. :) Thanks goodness for this forum and for you all being there.It makes me SO angry when perfectly health people get put on statins and then really get sick sometimes with lifelong handicapps.I think things will eventually change, but with all the investmenst in statins it may take some time.

[shawk]

Stina,

My Mother in law is Italian and she has always eaten very well...lots of Olive oil, and no refined carbs...whole wheat pasta's, etc...her tri's are also very low...

She does exercise and takes the supplements she is directed to...

The main point I have learned from this board and my own research is that nobody really understands Cholestrol and can really tell us what levels or good or bad....

In my case the MD I fired told me the following:
TC-238
LDL-171
HDL-30
VLDL-37
Tri's-300+

As you would guess he immediately scared me to death stating I was going to have a heart attack or stroke in a matter of months and he immediately put me on Advicor 500/20...


3 weeks later I had my chiropractor re-test my blood and I stopped taking the advicor after 5 days, along with the Xanax and the Wellbutrin 300MG(for cessation of smoking)

My second blood test showed the following:
TC-141
LDL-72
HDL-30
VLDL-39
Tri's-193

It is impossible to lower those numbers in 3 weeks...

So either my former MD lied or mixed my record up or worse...

By stopping smoking I should lower my tri's by 20 to 30 points and raise my HDL by 20....Smokers have much higher tri's and lower HDL than most folks...

I have been smoke free for 22 days now and I am exercising and have been on a very low fat diet for over 1 month....

We retest the blood in October to see were we are....My Tri's are high but not that high...what angers me is my LDL is actually very good....yet the MD scared me and stated something so wrong I cannot even begin to know were to start....

Good Luck and believe me you will be fine!

[stina]

Hi Shawk, You are so right, nobody really understands cholesterol and yet they would like us all to be on statins. My doctors scared me half to death too and told me that it was just a matter of time before I had a heart attack. The anxiety with this thought in the back of my mind was terrible. Is it not awful how the propaganda and hype gets us in such a state, specially when it probably is mostly lies and assumptions. To top it all the doctors who goes along with it. People you feel you could trust to have the knowledge and not dish medicines out willy nilly when surely they must have read reports of the terrible side effects of statins.The anger I feel makes me feel much better :)
Your LDL looks very good to me and well done for stopping smoking. Keep up the good work and lets have a glass of a good red wine to celebrate!