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Joined: 01 Aug 2007 Posts: 33 Location: Knoxville, TN
Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 6:45 pm Post subject: VYTORIN NIGHTMARE
Hi guys. I am brand new to this forum. I have been reading your posts for a couple of weeks now and would like to have some feedback on my situation. I became a heart patient last November when it was discovered that I had two 80% blockages. I was very shocked because I appear to be very healthy, good cholesterol (137 total, 62 hdl, 60 ldl) healthy weight, good blood pressure,exercised (weight training and cardio 5 days every week). I also eat right but have a terrible family history of heart disease. My cardiologist inserted two stents. You would think that I should be feeling great now but that is far from the case. He also started me on Vytorin 10/40, plavix, aspirin, and fish oil. He claimed that my cholesterol needed to be lower because I had so much plaque. My health has deteriorated since that time. I started having chest pains which I never had before, feeling tired, and weakness in my leg muscles. In February, my blood pressure also spiked. My doctor ordered anoth cath which showed everything was clear. Couldn't explain the symptoms, but added Coreg to lower my blood pressure. I continue to get worse. The fatigue has got me barely functioning. I struggle to exercise and my heart rate is staying really low (50s to lower 60s). I am gaining weight, I am sure because I cannot get my heart rate up even when I exercise. The chest pains are also worse. A friend stumbled on some research about depleted CoQ10 and the symptons fit me exactly. I want to stop taking Vytorin but I am sure my cardiologist will try to talk me out of it. My cholesterol readings on my last test were as follows:104 total, 29 ldl, 62 hdl, triglycerides 65. Am I the only one that thinks it is crazy to keep me on Vytorin given the side effects I am dealing with and especially since my numbers without it were good? I appreciate any thoughts or comments you can give.
Joined: 13 Dec 2006 Posts: 1136 Location: Fort Worth, Texas
Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 11:01 pm Post subject:
ronni: A statin Rx recommendation at your level of cholesterol seems INSANE!!! The primary problem with statins is that they impede your body's ability to produce CoQ10 and that can severely compromise your health. Both CoQ10 and L-Carnitine are essential to good muscle health and function, and you know what your heart is made of, right? CoQ10 at least 200Mg before each meal (UbiquinOL; not UbiquiNONE) is what I take to recover and L-Carnitine at 1000Mg (1 gram) daily. Personally, I will NEVER take another statin as long as I live. I also think your doctor is a total incompetent, but that's just my opinion based on your post. Feeling tired and heavy/weak legs are CLASSIC Statin-related symptoms. Finally, studies done on patients following a cardiovascular incident have shown a high percentage of CoQ10 deficiency among those tested. Please get informed about this Statin poison and take action to protect your health. I am not a health practitioner but a fellow sufferer, and I can sympathize.
Joined: 13 Apr 2006 Posts: 405 Location: Bournemouth England
Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 5:56 am Post subject:
I will start again, my nearly finished reply disappeared and my browser shut down.
Your chest pains are almost certainly due to CoEenzyme Q10 deficiency due to the statin. Q10 is essential for heart energy, and for most other body processes as well. My heart problem never got beyond angina, made worse by a statin, but totally kept at bay by Q10 supplementation, coming back if I try a statin again. ( NB I believe that ubiquinone and ubiquinol are the same thing, but as Q10 is able to provide or take up oxygen, these are just the with and without oxygen states of the substance, which changes according to the circumstances in which it finds itself)
Q10 supplementation will probably improve your blood pressure by improving your heart pumping action, and will necessitate reducing or stopping the BP medication, I was able to stop two of my three BP meds when I started Q10.
Your weight increase is likely to be due to carnitine deficiency consequent upon Q10 loss, it is needed to transport fat as fuel into the mitochondria of the muscles, and fat will accumulate if unable to get used. Beware of trying to exercise too energetically when deficient of carnitine, muscle protein will be used to provide the energy needed, and muscle loss will occur.
I expect that the folic acid and Vits B6 and B12 supplementation could help in preventing further heart problems by reducing homocysteine levels, more relevant than cholesterol level in predicting cardiac problems.
I suggest that you look up and show your cardiologist the website *www.neuro.wustl/neuromuscular.html loking up lipid lowering myopathy, Coenzyme Q10 deficiency, and carnitine deficiency. The relevant part is well down the Carnitine page, with the subtitle MADD above it. It says it is allelic to Q10 deficiency.
Plavix pushed up my BP when I took it after a stroke two years ago. I now rely on aspirin instead.
Not a doctor, only a very ancient engineer, with personal experience and a lot of other peoples' taken into account.
Dr Peter Langsjoen's papers via google show his experience as a cardiologist with heart problems consequent upon statin use, and advice on Q10 use.
"I also think your doctor is a total incompetent,
but that's just my opinion based on your post."
ronni, Brooks is way to polite. Your doctor is an incredible jackass -- a dangerously ill informed idiot (but possibly sociopathic considering that many sociologist believe as much as 4% of the population have such tendencies). This is the most outragious case I have ever heard of and further support for the abject foolishness of the prevailing theory for heart disease. Regardless, in my opinion, your doctor's too far gone to be worth trying to educate, while sending him the info Ray suggested cannot hurt. Fire him and warn others about him.
"I expect that the folic acid and Vits B6 and B12
supplementation could help in preventing further
heart problems by reducing homocysteine levels,
more relevant than cholesterol level in predicting
Joined: 01 Aug 2007 Posts: 33 Location: Knoxville, TN
Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 7:26 pm Post subject:
Thanks Brooks, Ray and Biologist for your support. I really don't believe my cardiologist has anything but the best intentions, but after all of the research I have done, I believe he has been duped by the drug companies. There is a school of thought that lower is better when it comes to cholesterol especially when heart disease is present. However, I have come to feel that I am poisoning my body with this Vytorin, and the supposed benefit is not worth the side effects. I have an appointment next week. I will come armed with this research and depending on his response, he may indeed be getting fired! I will be adding the supplements recommended and hopefully I can reverse the damage. Thanks again for your comments.
I've been off of Vytorin 10/40 for 5 months now (was on Lipitor for many years before that). Thanks to the info and support from this forum & Dr. Graveline's site, I have never felt better in my life! My entire physical & mental well being has not been this good in years.
Now I too am not a doctor, but it sounds as though you were just dealt a bad hand with regard to heart disease in your genes. I do not have a history of heart disease, but I did get a family history of high cholesterol numbers....however, I too will never touch another statin as long as I live. I take my regimen of B's, C's, Fish oil, CoQ10, Folic acid, aspirin every day.
You need to make your own decisions regarding your body, but as many have mentioned here before.....once you break the statin intake, things begin to turn around.
ps....since going off statins, I have ran a 10k race and my wife & I ride our bikes to work 2~4 times per week (14 miles each way)! My memory & congnitive thought is back too.
If I were you I would want to know what my homocysteine levels are.
Ask you doctor to please look on your chart and tell you what they are.
If you get the response I suspect you will be getting, please reread my last post . Scratch that. Let him read my last post!
I think there is no excuse for him not to know, and you have probably nailed the reason he does not -- Pharma indoctrination intoxication. You will probably also want to get tested for other levels such as Lp(a), C-Reactive Protein and Oxidized LDL (I am not sure if there is a direct test for the Oxidized LDL, but perhaps by associated antibodies or something). I am no expert on these tests and have not had them myself.
If you have not yet started a routine as Ray has suggested, you might want to wait to get some tests first. It may answer the question about your blockages. I predict your levels of homocysteine are through the roof. You may also what to see if you can figure out what your blood levels are for the three vitamins Ray mentioned -- before starting the supplementing. Knowing these facts should answer a lot of questions for you and will let you know that you are on the right path for improvement when you start.
Here's a book you might want to read. It is part of my library:
The days of following a doctor blindly and going to the same one for years are over.....You know your body....If you aren't improving say in a couple of months...find another doctor...If a doctor talks to you with one foot out the door ready to run...find another doctor...if a doctor talks to you like you are some sort of imbecile..find another doctor..If he doesn't listen to what you say find another doctor...If he won't address more than 1 of your symptoms at a time...find another doctor....by this time you get my drift...I fired the doctor who put me on zocor and laughed at me when I told him I thought it was the zocor that was making me ill..Just wish it hadn't of taken me 3 years and 2 trips to Mayos to do it......One more thing if a doctor puts you on a new medication, and you start to have strange symptoms you never had before...read the adverse reactions in the insert you get with your meds or look up your med on the internet...I find I get more info from my pharmacist...go armed to the doctors with your suspicions.....sorry...gabby today.....
As I write this post, I suppose I'm drunk. I'm doing an experiment.
First thing, Nuke, I have been giving your initial post in this tread a lot of thought over the last few days and it caused me to "find it" (your post) again via the search term "alcohol." I have noticed the same thing for months regarding alcohol (also with Ambien). You expressed it to the tee:
" I also lost the ability to get euphoria from alcohol.
I could drink, and become impaired, but I would not get
On my FIFTH beer on an empty stomach, I am finally getting a buzz!
It is similar to what I would have expected on my FIRST from prior to November 7, 2006 !
There has to be a molecular change in some cellular neurons in the brain.
Nuke, I appreciate your bringing this up. Your post is perhaps the most gratifying and most important (to me) that I have yet read on this forum (which is saying a hell of a lot!). To say the least, you are not alone. In my case, however, it has been many months and the "lack of euphoria" syndrome remains -- well, until "recently" (the last couple of beers, thank God). BTW, I am expecting a full fledged hangover just the same...
Regarding tinnitus. I have it too. Want to see how aggressive it can get? You will be impressed. Try half a heaping spoonful of ground cinnamon a day for week or so (cheap at Sam's Club). Don't even need a prescription. You will know what tinnitus really means -- I learned the hard way. (It has gotten better over the months.) Cinnamon is a HMG CoA Reductase Inhibitor -- a Statin. Nuke, you mentioned maybe going back on statins. If I had not been there, I would not have believed it either. I am telling you Don't do it. You will damage yourself. Any kind of statin is a No No.
I was recently fairly aggressive in my evaluation of a cardiologist:
IF he said to add CoQ10 along with the recommended "treatment" he would not have gotten the title "idiot" or "sociopath." In truth, chances are he is neither, he is just ignorant as hell. Sure, statins greatly lower the inflammatory response. But they also lower the "life response." The doctor remains a dangerous idiot in my book. I hope ronni read the book I suggested.
Dr. Graveline, and bucho, and Darrell (fellow scientists -- engineers, the last two, and probably all three): all of you have way above average education and understanding of reality/physics. One or more of you may benefit from a recent epiphany of mine (while most, if not all, have understood it for years): How is it that a chemical equation can be balanced but still generate energy (such as ATP production)? Bugged me for decades. Now I understand. The answer is the ENERGY STATE of the outer electron(s) in the electron shell! That's how! In the end, its lowered from a higher energy state. It is the energy of the sun that raises it in the chemical bonds in the first place of the created operative molecules (photosynthesis) -- that's what life harnesses!
[quote="catspajamas"] One more thing if a doctor puts you on a new medication, and you start to have strange symptoms you never had before...read the adverse reactions in the insert you get with your meds or look up your med on the internet...I find I get more info from my pharmacist...go armed to the doctors with your suspicions.....sorry...gabby today.....[/quote]
I check out the meds before I even start them... *http://www.drugs.com is a great site for getting information about the drugs regarding common adverse reactions and not so common adverse reactions; as well as checking adverse reactions with other medications. Then I start taking them if I feel comfortable, after reading info, and see how I do... of course, I stop immediately if I have any adverse reaction.
Joined: 01 Aug 2007 Posts: 33 Location: Knoxville, TN
Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 8:10 pm Post subject: vytorin nightmare
Well guys after two botched lab tests (by the lab techs) the results are in and I am CoQ10 deficient. My doctor has told me to stop the Vytorin for now, (I don't know that I will ever let him put me back on a statin.) I am now taking 100 mg. CoQ10 twice a day. I have added 500 mg vitamin C and 400 IU vitamin E. I also added L-Carnitene 250 mg twice a day. I have no idea if the amounts I am taking are enough. Can someone give me some advice? I am still taking the Plavix and 81mg aspirin because of the drug eluting stents. These meds never seemed to bother me. My homocysteine level came back good as well as my CK. I feel as though I am getting some of my energy back. I have been off of the Vytorin nearly two weeks but I am still having chest pain. This may be due to weaning off the Coreg as well. Any idea how long it will take to get my life back? I really appreciate all the support you have given. Thanks again.
Sounds like you are making progress. Search for recent posts and threads (last three months or more) where Brooks (cjbrooksjc) has posted. They may be helpful to you for ideas on your supplement regime. Your amounts of Q seems low to me to be taking E at the same time. You will read why from the posts.
Here is an interesting thread I read last night; you and others might find it of interest too. I like this doctor who owns the website (Brian has referrenced it/him several times); and besides the Krill, the idea of Curcumin/Turmeric is something that seems to make sense. See what you think. You can check out all three on Wikipedia, for one.
PS. You want to keep your homocysteine levels as low as possible. I am yet to have mine checked but I plan to. My doctor is not real wild about the "specificity" of the test -- whatever that means, and for that reason we have not done one. I will pursue it more when I go back this week.
Same for the following where I found this quote somewhere in my readings last night:
"C-reactive protein (CRP), which is one of the most useful biomarkers of inflammation, appears to be a central player in the harmful effects of systemic inflammation and an easy and inexpensive screening test to assess inflammation-associated risk. Unlike other markers of inflammation, CRP levels are stable over long periods, have no diurnal variation and can be measured inexpensively."
Joined: 13 Apr 2006 Posts: 405 Location: Bournemouth England
Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 3:02 pm Post subject:
I feel that your Q10 dose is too low if you are still getting chest pains , my problem is a little different to yours, but I get angina pains if my Q10 dose is not kept up sufficiently high, I actually take 700 mg a day, split into 3 doses, but I doubt if you will need as much as that. It would pay you to experiment with higher amounts, it is not cheap over here, not quite so bad in US, so add an extra 250 mg capsule a day waiting 2 or 3 days to see if any improvement, then add a second each day, until you feel better, or you reach affordability. Q10 is not harmful, some people take 1000 mg a day to help with Parkinson's. my dose has done me nothing but good, getting up to that level over 4 years.
Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 5:57 am Post subject: ronni
ronni your case is so like mine, I know so much more from this forum.
these phamy empires are playing out a touch genicide ( staticde} on the the people with cholestrol problems , and they the doctors can't give us a reason for our major pain complaints!!!
It is a fact that a percentage of doctors get throw backs from the pharmy companys, and thats why they turn a blind eye to our suffering from these statins.
Lets hope bill Gates gets put on stats!!!! Then will see this monster slayed
Joined: 24 Oct 2006 Posts: 683 Location: Ongar, UK
Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 6:27 am Post subject:
It all began long ago, in 1910 to be exact, when the Rockefeller Foundation - sponsored Abraham Flexner report "Medical Education In America" catalyzed a revolution in medical teaching which lead to universal conformity to a common syllabus. Once this was achieved control by vested interests was assured.
We are now in an extreme patient-as-consumer situation. All we can do is walk away from the whole horror show, engaging doctors to do a specific job DECIDED BY US in exactly the same way we employ other tradesmen.
Only this morning I received two letters from our local practice nurse(!) calling me in to have my blood pressure measured and to have a lipid profile blood test. It's ALL about enrolling lifetime consumers for pharmaceuticals masquerading as "Health Care". To do that they must first scare you with numbers then blind you with phony science.
Joined: 24 Oct 2006 Posts: 683 Location: Ongar, UK
Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 12:20 pm Post subject:
Abraham Flexner was responsible for establishing chemical-based medicine as the dominant approach in US practice, based on the German model (he was of German descent). Those medical schools that didn't conform didn't survive long. This mode of treatment became dominant throughout Western medicine as we have seen - and experienced to our cost. Up to the time of the Flexner Report
there were a great diversity of approaches, afterwards a rapid withering away of alternative therapies. The tragedy is that Tesla and others were making important discoveries in the area of electromagnetic therapies but these were to receive no support from government or industry.
On the face of it introducing strict scientific rigour into medical research and training is definitely a good thing. However, decisions as to what is "scientific" and what is "not scientific" are made in a social matrix in which powerful established interests dominate. In the early years of the 20th Century these were (and still are) corporate, both industrial and financial. Thus medicine was industrialized by being "chemicalized" and by following the industrial model the iron logic of efficiencies of scale was introduced. (Think of vast fermentation vats, that's how most of our drugs are made.) With such logic comes the need for ever expanding markets - and the ruthless defence of existing ones. It is but a short step for competing modes to be classified "disruptive" and government support for their suppression enlisted.
The Professor steps down
PS Correction to my earlier post. It was the Carnegie Foundation that bankrolled Flexner's study trips, the Rockefeller Foundation sponsorship for his educational initiatives came later.
Last edited by Brian C. on Sun Mar 08, 2009 2:18 am; edited 1 time in total
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